Beau Friedlander:
Adam
Travis Taylor:
Beau?
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. Travis.
Travis Taylor:
Yes.
Beau Friedlander:
Ah, I see. We’re all here, huh?
Adam Levin:
Well, where else would we be?
Beau Friedlander:
I don’t think of you being all there, so I don’t know. Fell into my trap. So Apple Lockdown tells me something very interesting about the world today. But before I tell you what it tells me, Travis?
Travis Taylor:
Yes.
Beau Friedlander:
Spock. Why don’t you tell the listeners, our nice listeners, about what Apple Lockdown does.
Travis Taylor:
Apple Lockdown is meant to be a security setting for your iPhone that will prevent it from getting any zero- it.click malware, specifically the Pegasus malware. We’ve seen a lot of headlines about
Speaker 4:
In today’s tech bites, Apple’s new effort to protect iPhones. Lockdown mode is meant to shield high profile users, like politicians, from state sponsored hackers. It turns off several vulnerable iPhone features, reducing the number of ways that hackers can attack a target.
Adam Levin:
Pegasus is spyware. Think of it statecraft spyware.
Beau Friedlander:
So like Jason Bourne would slip this into your phone, like a… I don’t know.
Adam Levin:
I don’t know because I’m watching Travis is crinkling his eyes, which tells me, he thinks it’s something different than we’re saying.
Beau Friedlander:
It is spyware.
Travis Taylor:
It’s spyware in steroids. It is really just in a league of its own.
Beau Friedlander:
Excuse me. But bodybuilder on steroids, it’s still a bodybuilder.
Travis Taylor:
Sure. I mean potato-potato. But this is something where it says zero-click malware.
Adam Levin:
Tomato-tomato.
Beau Friedlander:
And it got a DaVita. So listen, but why do I care about spyware? Ooh, I rhymed.
Travis Taylor:
Well, the main thing to keep in mind about this is you don’t need to install anything. You don’t need to download anything. It will install itself to your phone if you get it by text.
Beau Friedlander:
Whoa, you didn’t answer my question.
Travis Taylor:
Sure.
Beau Friedlander:
Adam.
Adam Levin:
Beau, yes.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. That’s me.
Adam Levin:
Hello.
Beau Friedlander:
Why? None of us really need to be too concerned about spyware. Pegasus, it was developed in Israel. It’s a very famous software that was developed specifically to spy on reporters, journalists, movie stars-
Adam Levin:
Dissidents.
Beau Friedlander:
But more like dissidents, like Adam said. Yeah. And so I don’t see myself as, I mean, I may be a lot of things, but of interest to a government is not one of them.
Adam Levin:
Speaking on behalf of your government, Beau, let me just tell you, you are of great interest to us.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh yeah. For my piddly, little tax.
Adam Levin:
There was this great line from the movie The American President where it says, “She’s got an FBI file.” To which the Senator responded, “My mother has an FBI file.”
Beau Friedlander:
Right. So Apple cares enough about this, that they’ve offered a $2 million bug bounty in addition to, I think was it $10 million for some other project that has to do with stopping this kind of spyware, but they’re really concerned. And their answer is to lock your phone down, how is that different from just turning your phone off?
Travis Taylor:
Well, the main thing about the Lockdown Mode is that it prevents most incoming forms of communication for your phone. So that means even if your phone-
Beau Friedlander:
Well, no, no, no. That’s not true. It prevents most incoming forms of media that can infect your device.
Travis Taylor:
Right. Yep. Important distinction. Yeah. But it also means that if you, say, plug in your phone into something, into a device on Lockdown Mode, that does not allow that to connect.
Beau Friedlander:
So Adam, I had this vision of a submarine sealing it’s little turret and pumping the water out and going underwater as Lockdown Mode, but that’s not it at all. All it is, it’s actually a functioning mode so that you can use your device without fear of somebody hacking you with Pegasus. I still think it’s bonkers that anyone needs that. I just don’t see myself ever using that feature.
Adam Levin:
Well, the issue is not whether you are going to use it or not. The issue is whether someone can get through Lockdown Mode, which Apple says they can’t, in order to crawl into your phone for the purpose of spying on you.
Beau Friedlander:
So this is for James Bond, for example, he’s the Pegasus guy, he’s the guy that’s going to get this thing.
Adam Levin:
Well, in the movie Gold Finger, there was a button in his car and he said, “Whatever you do, don’t touch the button.”
Beau Friedlander:
The button was the Lockdown Mode, what was it?
Adam Levin:
No, the button was the ejector seat and-
Beau Friedlander:
Oh. So he needs that. I don’t. That’s [inaudible 00:04:52] take away.
Adam Levin:
If he didn’t like someone sitting next to him, they weren’t wearing the right perfume, whatever it was, he could press the button and they were gone.
Beau Friedlander:
No, but I get it. But with this lockdown feature, it is that button for the person you don’t want to have sitting next to you, which is, in this case, a spy. But this stuff does have a way of trickling down, Travis?
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. Because as soon as you know that there’s the possibility of zero-click malware out there, that becomes a very enticing idea for folks, just because they can say, “All right, it’s possible. We know someone’s already made this. How do we make this on our end?”
Adam Levin:
Just like when people talk about the government wants a backdoor into your Apple phone or whatever, the issue is always, and what if the government gets breached and that information gets out on the wild. Since we’re dealing with malware as a service, software as a service, that people are taking it, tweaking it, and making it more and more user friendly, making it easier, a lower barrier of entry for anyone who wants to do this kind of stuff. So it’s all about lowering the barrier to entry.
Beau Friedlander:
And the idea that there could be a kind of low rent Pegasus, and I think Pegasus is very expensive, would be appealing to your garden variety stalkers, and/or identity thieves, hackers. A lot of people would be interested in this stuff.
Adam Levin:
Angry ex-spouses, stuff like that.
Beau Friedlander:
It would be nice though, if there was something other than just blocking, turning your smartphone into a semi-dumb phone.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. It’s technically the equivalent of just turning your iPhone into a ham radio and just saying that, “Now it’s secure.” I know, it’s not quite that bad.
Adam Levin:
Welcome to What the Hack, a show about hackers scammers and the people they go after. I’m Adam, virtual velociraptor.
Beau Friedlander:
I’m Beau, cyber amber knob on the hand stick of a billionaire, with the DNA of something really awesome inside, that’s me.
Travis Taylor:
And I’m Travis, cyber chicken.
Adam Levin:
Today, Andy Pham shares his story of a white collar crime influenced real estate fiasco. Andy, welcome to What the Hack.
Beau Friedlander:
Where are you coming from today, Andy?
Andy Pham:
I’m in Mesa, Arizona today. And I moved here from… I own a self storage in Mesa, Arizona. I built this in 2006. Myself and a group of investors, we bought 20 acres of land. And in 2006 we built 60,000 square feet of self storage. Now, in the east Mesa after 60. And when I was building this facility, I bought this property in 2005. And remember, this is at the time when we pay at the top of the market. Then I got the entitlements, built it, and the market crashed.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh yeah.
Andy Pham:
And this in 2008, took out a loan from a bank and they said, “Whoa, your valuations,” when the market crashed, the bank will look at the value of the property. They say, “Whoa, you’re not value at $10 million anymore. So what we going to do is we’re not going to fund your last construction draft. And so what I did, I move out to Mesa, Arizona in 2008, and work with all my subs and say, “Look, guys, I need to get my certificate of occupancy. And if you can help me, just get me through the finish line, we all can get paid at the end.” That’s how this project-
Beau Friedlander:
And that’s where you are right now. That’s brilliant. So you talked your subs into getting busy with you to get it finished and then you can… Huh?
Andy Pham:
Yeah. Then we all got paid.
Adam Levin:
That’s a big deal.
Andy Pham:
Then what I did is for me in order to get this thing rented up during this recession, I didn’t even have the money for the software. So what I did is I just went into Office Depot, bought a calendar, and I put a sign outside. And I slept on the floor. We built a manager quarter, so I slept on the floor. And I put up flags and say, “Move in specials.” And everyone move in. We have a huge retirement community right next to us. So when people would drive up with their trucks, then what I do, I run out and I say, “Let me unload a truck for you, [inaudible 00:09:58] out the boxes [inaudible 00:10:00].”
Beau Friedlander:
I was about to be super jealous of how successful you are, but it’s all you, man. Go for it. No. Yeah. I mean, that’s a lot of work. Yeah. That’s tremendous. That’s tremendous.
Adam Levin:
Well, this is the American dream for sure. So let me ask you, you obviously look like a young guy. Certainly compared to Beau and me.
Beau Friedlander:
Hey.
Adam Levin:
Anyone looks like a young guy-
Beau Friedlander:
I was about to apply for a job. You just messed. That’s like tortious interference. I was going to ask him for a job because I’m so sick of you. And you know what? Now he thinks I’m old. Thanks, Adam.
Adam Levin:
Well, you know.
Andy Pham:
I’m actually 53 years old.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, so am I. I could work with you. You do look really quite good for 53.
Adam Levin:
Beau is actually, but you are really 53, right, Beau? Kind of, sort of. I, on the other hand, I’m 72. And Beau and my 10 year old, they keep me up.
Beau Friedlander:
And Travis is 23. No.
Adam Levin:
And Travis just sits there going, “I can’t believe I’m working with old people like this.”
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, please. I think you were asking-
Travis Taylor:
Everyone’s been assuming I’m in my 40s since I was about five.
Beau Friedlander:
Plus that voice of yours.
Adam Levin:
Andy, let me ask you, is real estate your thing, have you always done real estate?
Andy Pham:
No, when I came here, I came to America in 1981 from Vietnam. So my parents, in 1980, my parents, my mom put me on the boat. This is after when United States pull out Vietnam, 1975.
Adam Levin:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Andy Pham:
So my dad,, he fought for the south. So he decided he’s not going to leave when my grandmother and her family, my mom’s side, decided to leave with Americans in 1975. So I live under communism for five years. During this time in Vietnam, there was the war in Cambodia in 1980. And she didn’t want me to fight, to go join, because in Vietnam, when you’re 18, you have to join the military. And under communism, you don’t have a choice, so they’re going to send you to fight in Cambodia. You’re not going to make it back alive. So at that time, my mom decided to sell everything that she owns and put me on a boat with other kids. Then we were drifted out to sea for three days until we were rescued by the offshore oil rig in the middle of the ocean. And after that, they put us on the islands, in Malaysia. Then that’s how I grew up on the islands for a year and a half, until my grandmother sponsored me here in the US, so it took like two years.
Beau Friedlander:
You say your grandmother, Andy?
Andy Pham:
Yes.
Beau Friedlander:
I assume you’ve already optioned the rights to your life story for a movie.
Adam Levin:
Because if not, Beau and I are going to offer-
Beau Friedlander:
We’re-
Adam Levin:
We’re going to start negotiating now.
Beau Friedlander:
Your last $250,000 is right here, baby.
Beau Friedlander:
You landed here at five and immediately started doing real estate, there must have been something else.
Andy Pham:
No, I landed when I was 11 years old, 1980. Yeah, 1981.
Adam Levin:
See, that’s incredible.
Beau Friedlander:
It’s also still a little young to do real estate. So where did you move? Where was your grandmother?
Andy Pham:
We grew up in the San Fernando Valley.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, nice.
Andy Pham:
Fernando Hills.
Adam Levin:
Lovely. Yeah.
Travis Taylor:
Well, what did you study in college?
Andy Pham:
I studied political science.
Adam Levin:
Yes. So did I.
Travis Taylor:
And was that something that you were able to leverage into real estate or was it just sort of parallel interests?
Andy Pham:
Well, I thought I wanted to be a politician, run for political offices. And after a while I just changed my mind and say, “You know what? I’m going to get my…” I met someone, they say, “Andy, in the US, if you get licenses, you can make a lot of money.” I went and got my real estate broker license, my insurance license, and my security license Series 7, which it you can sell stock, bonds, mutual funds.
Adam Levin:
Absolutely.
Travis Taylor:
And how old were you when all this was happening? [inaudible 00:14:07].
Beau Friedlander:
I’m just feeling very, very unaccomplished right now.
Andy Pham:
I was 19, 20 years old.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow.
Adam Levin:
He had put us in our place here. You come here, come to our living room, and basically-
Beau Friedlander:
Adam, I was thinking he was talking about running for office. And I was like, “Just like Adam.” And then he was like, “And I got all these licenses.” I was like, “Not just like Adam.”
Adam Levin:
Not like Adam, I got one license and then I-
Beau Friedlander:
No, you did. Yeah.
Adam Levin:
Got everything I learned in law school.
Beau Friedlander:
Mr. JD over there. Yeah. No, but at 19 to have three different ones and be able to sell securities. Wow.
Adam Levin:
That’s awesome. Again, people aspire to that and you did it.
Travis Taylor:
Making us look bad over here.
Beau Friedlander:
So Andy, we joke, but we do know that you did have a rather super annoying experience that you came here to tell us about today.
Andy Pham:
Yes.
Andy Pham:
In 2005, I moved to Vegas. I did a project in Vegas called Caballos de Oro. So in 2005, with 84 investors of mine, we bought a piece of land northwest of Vegas. And you have to go back in 2004, I bought a piece of land, five acres in the southwest of Vegas. And we flip it for a 4.5 with entitlements, with approved set of plans that a builder can build.
Beau Friedlander:
This spot, I’m not that familiar with Las Vegas, and for our listeners who may also only have a kind of Main Strip understanding of Las Vegas, where was this property? And what was it like?
Andy Pham:
So as you know, Vegas, you just think of it like a quadrant, there’s four quadrants. You have Las Vegas Boulevard runs in the mill. And you have northwest, Northeast, and you have southeast, which is Henderson, and you have the Southwest that’s the up and coming where you have the Red Rock Casino. So we are in the Summerlin area, northwest of Vegas. When Vegas completed the beltway highway, called it the 215, now you can go 360.
Adam Levin:
It’s like a loop. It’s the loop around Vegas. Yeah.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. And this is inside the loop?
Andy Pham:
Inside the loop.
Beau Friedlander:
So it’s not cheap. So you didn’t buy that for… So that’s why, because it sounded expensive to me, but now I get it.
Andy Pham:
Yeah. You have to envision yourself this five acres. The back of you is Red Rock Canyon National Park. The view is the key, anything that you buy in Vegas.
Adam Levin:
Now, were you building multifamily or were you building single family homes?
Andy Pham:
We were thinking about building 30 townhomes on that property. Got approved for 30 townhomes. So this is 2005. So I pay $5 million. It took like 16 months to get approval because in 2006, ’07, the city of Las Vegas was very busy with just major developments. So you have to get a zone change and you have to get approval for their entitlements.
Travis Taylor:
What was the rate of return you were expecting on that overall?
Andy Pham:
Our cost was $500 per square foot to build.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow. That’s not cheap.
Andy Pham:
Nope.
Beau Friedlander:
So you were building really nice townhouses.
Adam Levin:
That’s in 2005. So that’s, yeah.
Andy Pham:
Yeah. That’s right. And we project to sell for $1,000 per foot.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, that’s also not cheap.
Travis Taylor:
I guess, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about real estate or development or anything like that, I think what they have to wonder is, you obviously start off with a lot of research here, but how do you pick this spot? Why Las Vegas specifically, or why the Mesa Arizona?
Andy Pham:
Because what you have to look at where the growth is. And Vegas, in 2005, has the longest growth in history, with real estate people moving there. The key for Nevada is there’s no state tax.
Travis Taylor:
Right.
Andy Pham:
So you have a lot of Californias are moving there. You’re going to save 11% in taxes if you make over $250,000 per year.
Travis Taylor:
Right.
Andy Pham:
So that’s where we saw the growth in all the Sunbelt States like Nevada, Arizona. Cost of living in Arizona is a lot cheaper than California.
Adam Levin:
Yep.
Andy Pham:
And you have the huge growth in Phoenix area right now in the last five years.
Adam Levin:
Oh, yeah. People have been pouring across the border.
Andy Pham:
That’s right.
Adam Levin:
When we started our company, part of the reason that we came to Arizona is there was a huge pool of very qualified fraud experts, because all of the major financial institutions had moved their fraud centers from the San Francisco area to Arizona for taxes and work rules. So Arizona was kind of like the wild west in those days.
Travis Taylor:
In terms of being the wild west, were any of those regulations in place for, say, anti fraud or anything or was it just more red tape?
Andy Pham:
No, when we bought the property in 2005… When you buy a property, you usually buy in an LLC, or a C Corp, a S Corp, because, number one is, LLC is Limited Liability Corporation as the past two corporation. So you insulate yourself for a liability reason. You want to buy in your name because if someone walks across your property, he gets injured, now you get sued. He can bring you in. At least an LLC is a separate entity and you insulate it from legal liability.
Adam Levin:
All right. So you create this LLC, and you put the property in it.
Andy Pham:
Right.
Adam Levin:
Then, what?
Andy Pham:
Then, had it approved for 30 townhomes. Then the market crashed. I couldn’t get construction loan, because when the market crashed in 2009, the banks are not lending.
Beau Friedlander:
This sounds the same as what just happened to Mesa.
Andy Pham:
Yep. The same.
Adam Levin:
It’s called economic cycles Beau.
Beau Friedlander:
Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, I resemble this ignorance you seem to think I have. But for real, did you do the same? Did you put a sign up outside this property and start building that?
Andy Pham:
No, no, because in Nevada we just have raw land. We didn’t have any physical structure on the property. So with raw land, you can just land bank it. That’s why we did. When the market, you can’t get the loan, so what you do, you just pay the property taxes. So in 2015, I’ve been paying the property taxes for 10 years.
Beau Friedlander:
10 years. Yeah.
Andy Pham:
In 2015, on New year’s Eve, which is December 31st, 2015, someone I didn’t know, went into the Secretary of State, removed me as the managing partner, managing member of my own LLC, and within 30 days he took out two loans on the property.
Andy Pham:
He went out and used the property as a collateral for two private lenders who he borrowed against. You’ll use the land as a collateral. So he borrowed $1.7 million. One loan is for 1.2, the other one for 550. And in 2016, he didn’t pay off the loan. And I receive a foreclosure notice.
Andy Pham:
What happened when you don’t pay off a hard money loan in a year, the lender will call the note due. And if you don’t pay off the interest-
Adam Levin:
They take the property.
Andy Pham:
They take the property. And the trustee is the third party in charge of the sale, they have to reach out to all the previous owners in the chain of title, because every property has the chain of title, what do you call it? Title report.
Travis Taylor:
Just to back it up here, because I’m a little bit flabbergasted about what you said.
Beau Friedlander:
No, no, I’m also, Travis, I’m with you 100%. I’m like, “Huh?”
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. My jaws been on the floor since you said that. How did he do this? Do you know?
Andy Pham:
All you have to do is, if anybody with any knowledge of white collar crime, all you have to do is find an LLC that has the piece-
Beau Friedlander:
Andrew, our producer, beep him everything he says from here to when he finishes telling you how to do the crime.
Adam Levin:
Yeah, we don’t want a how to.
Beau Friedlander:
No, no, we do actually. Andy, I’m kidding. I’m totally kidding. So is it that easy?
Andy Pham:
Very easy. Because the Secretary of State in Nevada, they chartered when they was established by the people of Nevada, the citizen of Nevada. There’s just a middleman, they don’t verify anything. Any time that you form an LLC in Nevada, that’s how people do it. They submit the articles of incorporation to the state and the state just accept it.
Adam Levin:
And the state goes, “Yeah, whatever you say.”
Beau Friedlander:
Boy, howdy, Adam, I guess you, Travis and I, are going to have to set up some LLCs in Las Vegas.
Adam Levin:
Absolutely.
Travis Taylor:
Do you know if they did it in person or electronically? Or is it really just walking right at them and saying like, “Hi, I’m now the head of this.”
Andy Pham:
Yeah. What you do is, go on Secretary of State’s website, and for $175, you can amend the list. You can amend the list of managers. Amend the fiscal address of the business. Is so easy. And all you have to do is, if you a crook, there’s lik ea disclaimer saying, “If you commit this, it is going to be Class C crime,” but no one cares.
Beau Friedlander:
So they have a clause saying, “Are you a crook?” And then you say, “No.”
Adam Levin:
No, no.
Beau Friedlander:
“No, not me. No, no, no, no. I’m just a guy who owns this property. I’m Andy Pham as a matter of fact, yeah, that’s the ticket.”
Adam Levin:
But he changed the name completely, right?
Andy Pham:
Yeah. What he did is just remove me.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh geez.
Andy Pham:
Adam, remove me as a managing member. You know when you remove somebody as a managing member, put yourself in there, now you have the authority to act-
Adam Levin:
Totally.
Andy Pham:
On behalf of the company,
Beau Friedlander:
But okay. I have a question, Adam. So I love your house in Phoenix. Andy, can you help me? I just want to remove him from it, and, no, you can’t help me. How come this guy could do it? I don’t get it.
Adam Levin:
See, the bad news in my house in Phoenix, it comes with my wife. And trust me, like a hawk, she watches everything.
Beau Friedlander:
And also she’s a boxer. So she would really, probably… Not a dog either. Like Muhammad Ali style, she punch-
Adam Levin:
Yeah. She would hurt you.
Beau Friedlander:
No, but for real, how come… Obviously I can’t just walk over to whoever the authorities are in Oregon, where Travis is, and say, “I’m taking Travis off of the deed of his house. It’s my house now.”
Travis Taylor:
You could probably swing it, to be honest with you.
Adam Levin:
In fact, Travis is ready to negotiate with you right now.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah, no, no, no. I don’t want his house because he doesn’t take care of his lawn.
Travis Taylor:
It’s fabulous, one of my neighbors just helped.
Beau Friedlander:
I’m wondering for real, there are no protections. You never got a note from them saying, “Hey, interesting that you’re no longer on here.” Or, “By the way, you’re no longer on this charter,” or whatever.
Andy Pham:
So the guy did this on New Year’s Eve, which is-
Adam Levin:
Nobody’s watching in New Year’s Eve and it’s Vegas.
Andy Pham:
New Year’s Eve 2015. Usually, when someone make a change to your LLC, the Secretary of State will send you a very generic email, saying, “The amended list has been updated for your company.” So what happened to us is, it went, my office manager is the one that handles all the LLC renewal fee, and she does that on your anniversary date. So when we formed the company that hold that piece of property was in November of 2005. So she went and updated the list in November. And she doesn’t think about it anymore because you have to come in and pay the annual renewal fee every single year on your anniversary date, which is the day that you formed the company. So she did that in November and she didn’t think about it until next year November. But the crook went in on December. So when the generic email came, it went into her spam folder and she didn’t know.
Beau Friedlander:
Ah. Oh, and it was genius because it was sent, Adam, on New Year’s Eve, when not only did it go into the spam folder, but it got buried in the spam folder.
Adam Levin:
Spam folder, along with all the New Year’s Eve party invitations.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, and all the other craps. So that is intense and smart.
Andy Pham:
And you know what? This happens a lot. Because my story got published in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, and a lot of people reached out to me. So in Vegas, there’s a lot of property owners that own properties, rental properties, then they live overseas. So you know what? When they own the rental properties, then they collect the rent. The tenant paid them the monthly rent in the bank account. And next thing you know, because all the rental properties own in an LLC, most of the smart people, and next thing you know, the tenant or the people, unscrupulous crooks, they removed them as a managing member of the owning LLC and said, “Look, I have control of the house now, because I’m the manager of this LLC that owns the home.” So that happens a lot in Vegas, as people own properties in the LLC rental property.
Adam Levin:
Well, I’m actually watching Beau right now, he’s on his computer and he’s at the Secretary of State’s office in Nevada right now, looking for properties.
Beau Friedlander:
I already set up three LLCs. One is, Watch Me Steal This Property, LLC. And the, no.
Adam Levin:
No, but this also, this kind of a problem is also a real problem in the elder community too. If you’re talking about in the non-business community, a lot of senior citizens who own homes without mortgages, people find a way to steal their identities and then take that property and get a mortgage against it. And the only time the victim finds out about it, is exactly what happened to you, is when the mortgage wasn’t properly paid for on a monthly basis, and then they suddenly get a foreclosure notice.
Beau Friedlander:
And also, Adam, it’s like a kind of crime where we all know about that kind of elder abuse and targeting elders, but I didn’t know that there’s so much about this business identity theft, which is essentially what happened here.
Adam Levin:
This is a thing. Now, Andy, based on this, this business identity theft situation with you, this is horrible. But I get the feeling a guy like you did not take this sitting down.
Beau Friedlander:
No, I get the feeling he turned it into a business. He was like, “Hmm, this gives me an idea.”
Adam Levin:
Yeah.
Beau Friedlander:
No, but for real, what did you do? How did you get the property back? Or did you have to eat the loss?
Andy Pham:
So it took me four years.
Beau Friedlander:
What?
Andy Pham:
To get my property back.
Beau Friedlander:
Four years?
Andy Pham:
It did, four years.
Adam Levin:
The court system does not move swiftly.
Beau Friedlander:
So this is worse than a debit card, Adam.
Adam Levin:
Yes.
Travis Taylor:
And were you able to identify the person who did it or the people?
Andy Pham:
Yes I did.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, wow.
Andy Pham:
Because you find out that person, when you file the quiet title action to get your property back, when someone steal your property, you have to go through what they call a quiet title action. And you discover that the guy that took out the loan is the individual that lived in Colorado.
Beau Friedlander:
What?
Andy Pham:
Yeah.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, hold on. Now, silence, I think I hear it coming. I hear Bruce Willis loading a gun and he’s really pissed off. And he’s about to get… I hear a revenge story coming.
Adam Levin:
Yep.
Beau Friedlander:
Did you do anything to this guy? I mean, please come on. You probably grew up in a situation where you’re good with your hands. At least till you were 11. So come on. Did you beat him up? Did you slap him happy?
Adam Levin:
So let me get this straight, you’re asking a man to talk about physical harm.
Beau Friedlander:
A felony, yes.
Adam Levin:
A felony.
Beau Friedlander:
So I wanted him to admit to a felony.
Adam Levin:
I think you’re going to get a straight answer to this. My bet is, I could be wrong, my bet is, you effectively use the legal system and then you use the criminal justice system as well, correct?
Andy Pham:
Correct, yes. What I did is I-
Adam Levin:
Gosh,
Andy Pham:
Going through the legal system cost me over $500,000 in legal fees just to get my land back.
Adam Levin:
Isn’t that amazing? Someone steals it and then you got to pay, and it’s not like they got the money to pay you back. Were you able to get a judgment against them and get money back from these guys?
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah.
Andy Pham:
Yeah. The court awarded me 250,000 in legal fees. So I’m trying to get that from the guy, the crook that stole the property. So throughout this whole ordeal, this whole story is unbelievable. I could never perceive that could happen to me because when you tell people the story, they couldn’t believe it. And how could someone steal your property? And it is easy, just go on the Secretary of State, remove somebody else as the managing member.
Beau Friedlander:
Unbelievable. Well, who, wait.
Adam Levin:
Beau, take your hand off the mouse. Take the hand off the mouse, right now.
Beau Friedlander:
I think it’s Travis, actually, looks like he’s the one who’s up to something.
Travis Taylor:
I was just going to ask. After you found out who he was, what was the guy? Just I’m imagining a black cowboy head and handle or mustache or something.
Beau Friedlander:
But yeah, a real villain. Yeah. Who was your criminal?
Andy Pham:
The guy was a dentist in Colorado.
Adam Levin:
A dentist?
Andy Pham:
Yeah.
Andy Pham:
Oh my God.
Adam Levin:
The story just gets better.
Beau Friedlander:
You experienced business identity theft by by a dentist. Nobody likes the dentist, but that’s really taking it a bit far.
Andy Pham:
Yeah, this guy is-
Beau Friedlander:
But did he have a history of, I don’t know, stealing people’s ID while he had them on laughing gas, who is this guy?
Andy Pham:
He has a history of doing this in the past.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow.
Andy Pham:
That’s the reason why.
Beau Friedlander:
So when you found this out, did it help you kind of…
Andy Pham:
So what I did is, when you find this out, you go with the legal system, but the legal system is very cumbersome and painful. And it is just very slow. And sometimes you just want your property back. Doesn’t [crosstalk 00:33:39].
Beau Friedlander:
And you want to call Bruce Willis and you want to slap [inaudible 00:33:41].
Andy Pham:
Yeah. And for me, the thing that I wanted to do is try to shame this person, because that’s all you can do. So what I did is, when the story kept publishing in Las Vegas Review-Journal, I flew up there. And in high school you read a book called Scarlet Letter, you want to shame this guy.
Adam Levin:
Yes. Okay.
Andy Pham:
And hand out newspaper.
Beau Friedlander:
So you were going to put a Scarlet Letter on this dude. Wait a second. Now, this is the man, Adam, who when he couldn’t finish his project in Mesa, moved to Mesa and started to help people unpack. So I’m kind of guessing we’re going to get a call back here.
Adam Levin:
This almost reminds me of, there was a movie many, many years ago called Marathon Man, starring Dustin Hoffman. And there’s a scene in the movie where they’re trying to get him to give information and he’s innocent. He knows nothing. And they put him in a dentist chair and they take a drill and they just start drilling his teeth. So I’m saying to myself, “Andy went to Denver and got the guy in his-
Beau Friedlander:
Oh. And he put him-
Adam Levin:
In his dental chair, and started drilling.
Beau Friedlander:
You’re a sick puppy, man.
Adam Levin:
I’m telling you, you got to see the movie, got to rent the movie.
Beau Friedlander:
All right. I don’t think he did that. I don’t think he did that. But what did you do? How did you shame him?
Andy Pham:
So what I did is I also built a website called [inaudible 00:35:06].com.
Adam Levin:
I love this.
Travis Taylor:
Nice.
Andy Pham:
So that morning I hand like 250 newspapers from the Las Vegas Review-Journal articles that bought it with me on the plane. So I start highlighting the articles on the front page.
Adam Levin:
Oh.
Andy Pham:
Then I put a fire on there. I put land thief, dentist from Colorado, land thief.
Adam Levin:
If you know this man…
Andy Pham:
That’s right. I call him a land thief. Then I hand out the newspaper. On top of it, there’s a 8×11 photo of him within-
Travis Taylor:
Oh, wow.
Beau Friedlander:
And this is in his neighborhood or?
Andy Pham:
Yeah, around his office, dental office.
Adam Levin:
Oh my goodness gracious.
Andy Pham:
All the offices. Knock on every door.
Beau Friedlander:
So we happened to have Mr. Land thief, naughty pants here. Mr. Land thief, how did you feel about it when Mr. Pham was passing your photograph around?
Travis Taylor:
Not great.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, not great. So what did he do? Did he do anything?
Adam Levin:
It’s like he felt like there was a cavity in his heart.
Beau Friedlander:
He did have a cavity in his heart. But listen, Andy, what did he do? Did he chase you out of the neighborhood? Anything? Or did you just keep doing it until he had a heart attack?
Andy Pham:
I did it for a day. And next thing you know, within five months later, he filed a defamation lawsuit against me.
Adam Levin:
Don’t don’t you love it. I’m going to take your property. You’re going to find out that I took your property. You’re going to tag me as the person who stole your property. And then you’re going to come after me saying, “Well, yeah, but I didn’t really steal your property because no one said I stole it yet.”
Beau Friedlander:
Months later, by the way.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. Five months is a pretty long time.
Adam Levin:
How come it took so long?
Andy Pham:
Because he waited for me. He waited for the website. He waited for all the things that he couldn’t get me for the defamation. That’s the reason why he waited out. Because I went to the police, I went to the FBI, I went to everybody asking for help and nobody help you. They say, “This is a civil matter. You have to go to the legal system.”
Beau Friedlander:
How much money did he get away with, this dude?
Andy Pham:
He got $1.7 million.
Adam Levin:
Did the financial institutions go back after him at all, since when it was-
Andy Pham:
No, because we subpoenaed all the bank records. The money came through from escrow, when the lenders loaned the money, subtracted their points and their fees. And it went through the Bank of America. He opened the bank account under our name, which is the name of the LLC, Caballos de Oro. And we subpoenaed directly. We saw the money came in from the lenders. And it went out a couple days, all went out. He paid it off. He loaned it to himself. He took out money, paying off other people. It went through all the crooks that [inaudible 00:38:07].
Adam Levin:
But then, did the lenders ever get the money back at all? Or are they looking for you to give the money?
Andy Pham:
That’s right. The lender got title insurance, so they always going to get paid and the legal fees they pay.
Adam Levin:
But I would assume the title insurance company would then go after whoever stole the property, right?
Andy Pham:
Yep. So throughout this whole ordeal, one thing I learned is, the title insurance, they don’t want to sell until they drag you, until you go bankrupt. They want you to sell the property first, before they pay out wherever the liability is.
Adam Levin:
All right. So the bottom line is, you have your property back. And the money, they’ve given up, so they’re not coming after you for the money, right?
Andy Pham:
No, because I didn’t get the money because I didn’t-
Adam Levin:
Because you didn’t take the money.
Beau Friedlander:
It wasn’t yours.
Andy Pham:
I didn’t take the money.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. So that was their loss. They had to go claw that back.
Andy Pham:
Yeah. Because throughout 8,000 pages of discovery, I never give this guy authority to act on my behalf and I never got any consideration, because when you sell something-
Adam Levin:
You get consideration.
Andy Pham:
Since consideration could be money could be a Rolex watch, could be a farm, could be anything. And I got nothing. So there’s no way that they can say, “Okay, Andy got some money.” I didn’t get anything.
Adam Levin:
Beau’s got a tractor, by the way, that he’d like to give you as consideration.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh no, I’d be happy to help you just so that you let me in on the entry level on whatever you do next, but just as a friend. But I would say, my tractor is in Connecticut though. I don’t know. It might be cheaper just to buy one in Nevada. The question I have is, you seem like a sane individual and a kind guy. You look like a nice guy. But that’s not why you’re here today. Are you telling us this story just because you like telling about horrible things that have happened to you? It sounds to me like the only reason I can imagine talking about this, is to make sure that other people don’t fall victim to a similar kind of problem. Business identity theft, I thought was pretty uncommon, but I’m wondering now.
Adam Levin:
It’s not really uncommon, yeah.
Andy Pham:
That’s right. Adam is right. Because 20 years ago when all the state digitized information, they didn’t put safeguards for business owners. And most of the business owners, small business owners, you think about when you form a LLC, you think outside our mind, I have to worry about my employees that worry about how many can meet payrolls. No one cares about the LLC. Now, with the crooks, they know that they can go online and for $175, you can amend the list and hijack the company and take out credit on the business, and you never know.
Beau Friedlander:
And if you do it during the time of year when someone’s not looking-
Andy Pham:
That’s right.
Travis Taylor:
Or if you get your email address compromised somehow.
Andy Pham:
That’s right.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, imagine that if they just hack into your email, so they know that when that email’s coming, they can just grab it and you never see it.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. One reused password.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow.
Adam Levin:
But I also feel understanding your story now and understanding your life history now, this doesn’t just end with you getting the property back and you’re going on your merry way. I get the feeling you’ve used this as an opportunity to help other people.
Andy Pham:
That’s right. So what I did is, you know when you go into a really dramatic experience in your life, you want to see, “Okay, what’s my purpose?” So you say, “Okay, why did this happen to me?” So you internalize that and you figure out solutions and you say, “Okay, I can build a company called Company Alarm.” So what we do is, people have their cell phones 24/7, it’s like their extension of the right hand. So what they do is, anytime that someone make a change, we send you a text notification to, let’s say you put five different mobile numbers, your kids, everybody, they can get the same text and say, “Adam, you have been removed as a managing member of Adam Levin, LLC.”
Beau Friedlander:
Adam Levine, no Maroon 5. Yeah. You know the [inaudible 00:42:28].
Adam Levin:
I’d like to remove Adam Levine and become the managing head of his LLC.
Beau Friedlander:
But now, what’s the name of the company again?
Andy Pham:
It’s called Company Alarm
Beau Friedlander:
Company Alarm. And does it operate by monitoring these Secretary of State transactions?
Andy Pham:
That’s right.
Adam Levin:
Is it all secretaries of state or just the State of Nevada?
Andy Pham:
28 states, we are in.
Adam Levin:
28 states.
Beau Friedlander:
Why not Connecticut? Please say Connecticut, are you in Connecticut?
Andy Pham:
No we’re not.
Adam Levin:
We need you. We need you to be in Connecticut.
Beau Friedlander:
Secretary of State in Connecticut, you should be listening. So how does that work? You get meetings with them and they try to figure out whether or not they need you. What’s the arrangement?
Andy Pham:
So what we do, Nevada, we built our software to monitor the data in the back. When you form a LLC, you have your physical address, you managing member, your name. Then we have that filled. And our software, when you sign up with us, our software will verify that information. So when you sign up, you have those fills that you filled in, then you say this is correct. Then every four hours we monitor the State’s website, if there’s a change in one field, like your name, then we notify you.
Beau Friedlander:
Every 24 hours, you say?
Andy Pham:
Every four hours.
Adam Levin:
Every four hours.
Beau Friedlander:
Every four hours, Jesus.
Travis Taylor:
And so is that like a automated script or automated technology? Or do you just have to have some folks kind of sitting there hitting a refresh once every four hours?
Beau Friedlander:
Or sitting in the office going, “I saw you, who are you? What did you do?”
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. Just wondering how the process works there.
Andy Pham:
So in Nevada we have… So our software, what we do is we subscribe to the FTP, the data protocol,
Travis Taylor:
The File Transfer Protocol?
Andy Pham:
Yes. And we compare that every day, every 24 hours. If there’s a change-
Travis Taylor:
Oh, that makes sense. So you just take the two separate files to see what’s changed and that will give you that notification.
Adam Levin:
And it’s all, it’s public information.
Andy Pham:
That’s right. You got it.
Beau Friedlander:
This is brilliant. This is a brilliant idea. So Adam, you just figured out how we can make our next gazillion trillion dollars.
Adam Levin:
Absolutely, with Andy, we’re going to figure this out together. All of us.
Beau Friedlander:
No, Andy, it’s brilliant.
Adam Levin:
That’s true.
Andy Pham:
You got to start somewhere.
Beau Friedlander:
That’s right. Thanks. I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Adam Levin:
Anyway, Andy, awesome. Thank you so much.
Andy Pham:
Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Adam Levin:
Have a good evening.
Andy Pham:
Thank you.
Travis Taylor:
Thanks.
Andy Pham:
Bye-bye.
Beau Friedlander:
Terrific. Thank you.
Beau Friedlander:
Holy [inaudible 00:45:19], dude.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. To be honest, a lot of the stuff that he was talking about in terms of the real estate market was way over my head, just completely outside of my area of expertise. But when he was really explaining it, I was just like, “Oh, wow. Not only does that make more sense when you’re describing it? I also had no idea it was that easy to defraud people in the real estate industry.”
Beau Friedlander:
But I also didn’t understand. And Adam worked in real estate for a long time. So this, Adam, thank you for nothing. I didn’t realize how smart it is to be in that business, because clearly he’s done very well for himself.
Adam Levin:
I know, listen, many of the great fortunes in this country and around the world have been real estate based.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am amazed. Contrary to your defamation of me, I am not going to start stealing LLCs. But that was really eye opening. And I am so glad, Adam, that you brought Andy to our attention.
Adam Levin:
Business identity theft is something that most people don’t think about, and they really do need to think about it. It’s, again, just another example of the fact that ultimately you have to be your own guardian because you never know, at any moment, what someone can do to you. And therefore it’s important to just stay alert, be aware, practice, as we like to talk about, the three Ms. How do you minimize your risk? How do you effectively monitor? In this case, he didn’t know, because no one told him, until it was almost too late.
Beau Friedlander:
It was too late. I just, my dentist… I’m not kidding, my dentist-
Adam Levin:
You’re treading on very sensitive territory, buddy.
Beau Friedlander:
Listen, he’s got his hands in his mouth with sharp tools. My dentist-
Adam Levin:
He’s got his hands in your mouth with sharp tools.
Beau Friedlander:
It’s late over here in New York. He’s a saint. My dentist is a Saint. And I am mad at Andy’s thief because he’s hurt a profession that I thought was ironclad. I felt sorry for them. They’re always feeling bad about how they’re inflicting pain on people. This guy clearly wasn’t feeling bad about it.
Travis Taylor:
Well, I think he was feeling bad after he had a bunch of glossy photos of himself printed up.
Beau Friedlander:
That’s a different kind of bad, that’s butt sore.
Travis Taylor:
Right.
Adam Levin:
That’s really pretty fascinating. But then again, Andy has demonstrated throughout his career, he’s got guts.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. That is next level thinking. I strongly approve of that revenge.
Beau Friedlander:
I do too. And I feel like I was pretty close on the Bruce Willis thing. He just did it in paper. He did it with [inaudible 00:48:11]. I loved him. I love Andy. I love him. And Adam-
Adam Levin:
Love him.
Beau Friedlander:
I know. Adam?
Adam Levin:
Beau?
Beau Friedlander:
My birthday’s only, I don’t know, how many months away? It’s quite a few months away. You have time to figure this out. I would like an Andy Pham t-shirt. And if you get me an Andy Pham t-shirt-
Adam Levin:
Because you are Pham.
Beau Friedlander:
I’m a fan. No, no, no. I’m a fan. I would love to be Pham, but I’m a fan. I’m a Pham fan. And I want the t-shirt. And I’ll tell you something, I will wear that t-shirt on the show and you can put it on Instagram and I will be proud of it, because he’s cool.
Beau Friedlander:
What the Hack with Adam Levin is a production of Loud Tree Media.
Adam Levin:
It’s produced by Andrew Steven, the man with two first names.
Travis Taylor:
You can find us online at loudtreemedia.com. And on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @adamklevin.
Speaker 7:
Loud Tree.
