What we call “social engineering” is basically what magicians have been doing for thousands of years. In this episode, journalist and documentarian Andrew Gold joins us to explore how stage performers, shamans and reporters use subtle forms of trickery–just like today’s hackers.

As a reporter, Gold likes to expose the inner workings of topics that flourish in the shadowlands of human activity. As a documentarian, Gold fearlessly tackles unusual situations and even casts himself as a highly dupe-able character in his dogged will to find out how this or that con works.

He’s not afraid to expose criminals, either. But when it comes time to share magician Derren Brown’s alleged mind control trick, he’s quieter than a loyal mobster in court. Listen as we come very close to getting the right answer to how a particularly funny moment came to light in front of a live audience.

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Read the transcript.

Adam Levin is the former Director of Consumer Affairs for the State of New Jersey, serial entrepreneur and author of Swiped, which he wrote with his sidekick, writer and cyber mensch, Beau Friedlander. With expert commentary from Travis “Here’s What Actually Happened” Taylor, the show gets everything sorted out—or not—but either way you’re going to have a great time. Something weird happen to you? We’ve got your back.

What the Hack with Adam Levin is a production of Loud Tree Media and is produced by Andrew Steven.