Adam Levin:
Hey, Beau.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah,
Adam Levin:
I’m moving.
Beau Friedlander:
You
Adam Levin:
Moving?
Beau Friedlander:
Yes. No, you move me greatly. I find you to be an emotionally satisfying person.
Adam Levin:
I totally realize that I’m moving personality and all that, but I’m actually physically moving.
Beau Friedlander:
I bet in this move you’re probably looking for scorpions everywhere.
Adam Levin:
I kind of think they already found me, which is disturbing because the place I had been living in, I’d only seen one scorpion with you. I
Beau Friedlander:
Know, I know. But I just am kidding with you. What’s going on with your move? How’s it going?
Adam Levin:
It’s emotional only in the fact that going to a new place, having to take everything and schlep it from one place to another, convincing the US Postal Service that it’s really me making a change of address. It’s a process.
Beau Friedlander:
So it’s a great time for other people to convince them that there you as well. And that’s always the issue with moving. You’re open to all stripe of real estate scam and real estate related scam and moving scams and all your stuff is in boxes and someone could just rifle through those boxes. It’s a fun time. You must
Adam Levin:
Be your mail
Beau Friedlander:
Excited
Adam Levin:
And your mail is in the process of trying to figure out where it’s going and people can intercept it times your email. You’re trying to change information and sometimes people have the old information versus the new information versus information that has absolutely nothing at all to do with you.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, one of the great things now that the US Postal Service has come up with is a paid service called Informed Delivery. And so now when you’re moving, you can sign up for it before you move, and they will actually take a picture of every piece of mail. That’s we. Its way to you. So you know before it happens for a year and it’s 30 bucks. So it’s one way that you can protect yourself going forward in this unsettled state where you’re moving, there’s nothing but moving parts, and you’re distracted. Not only you’re distracted, but you don’t have a familiar pattern in a way of doing things yet, and that leaves you wide open to getting attacked.
Adam Levin:
Well, except to be the contrarian in this conversation, because I am contrary from time to time, if someone were to break into my email and saw the pictures of the email coming to me from other people, they might be able to also create things that look like they’re coming from other people. You
Beau Friedlander:
Actually are the most annoying person on earth. I
Adam Levin:
Do try to be annoying. Travis, what do you think about that?
Travis Taylor:
I’d call it a close tie.
Adam Levin:
No, not about whether I’m annoying or not, but how do you feel about the concept that someone could, well bring themselves into your mail world and find out who’s mailing you things and then simply replicate what they’re mailing except with far different?
Travis Taylor:
Well, I’d say with email, that’s always going to be the Achilles heel for anyone if they’re an organization, person, individual, what have you, it’s easily still the favorite vector for attackers and hackers of all stripes. But
Adam Levin:
We did see a scam about it a year or two ago where people actually created snail mail versions of Internal Revenue Service communications, except they changed the address where people were supposed to send their checks.
Travis Taylor:
Now that is kind of sneakily brilliant. I think the one thing about it though is if you’re sending something through snail mail, you require money to be able to pay for postage. Whereas one of the things that can make email so effective is you can just send millions of emails out oftentimes by compromising another email server and that doesn’t cost you really anything.
Adam Levin:
Which brings us to our story today in a kind of crazy way. Hi there, I’m Adam Levin, former director of the New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs, founder of Cyber Scout, author of the book Swiped How to Protect Yourself in a World Full of Scammers, fishers and Identity Thieves.
Beau Friedlander:
And I’m BeauFreelander, cybermen writer and all around curious person who tries to hack hackers.
Travis Taylor:
Now I’m Travis Taylor, resident tech guide.
Adam Levin:
So Josh, our next guest is a partner at a major real estate company in California.
Josh:
Hi there. Hi.
Adam Levin:
Hey Josh, it’s Adam Levin. I’m here with BeauFriedlander and Travis Taylor, the Dynamic Cybersecurity trio. And we really appreciate you coming on the show today. You have a very interesting story. But before we start, where are you talking to us from now?
Josh:
We’re from sunny Southern California. We’re in West Los Angeles, headquartered at Beverly Hills. I’m a partner at a commercial real estate outfit down here and we love California. And how about you guys? Where are you guys based out of?
Adam Levin:
I’m in Arizona.
Josh:
Okay.
Adam Levin:
Beauis dodging bears in Connecticut.
Josh:
Good for him.
Adam Levin:
And Travis is living the good spiritual life up in Oregon a
Travis Taylor:
Lot. Rainier and cloudier. Yep.
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, I bet. Bet We do business up in Washington state, so we’re up there often in the Puget Sound area, and we’re lucky enough to get up there in the summertime or spring, late spring. It’s really great, but the other time it’s a little drizzly, so we’re not used to it down here where we get the sunshine.
Adam Levin:
Yes, I know in places like Washington and Oregon, people go outside and say there’s a strange fireball in the sky. I have no idea what it is,
Josh:
But
Travis Taylor:
That’s just eight months out of the year. The other four months are really quite pleasant.
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right. But
Adam Levin:
Anyway, so tell us what brings you on our no shame zone haven for all those who have been somehow experienced unpleasant experience online.
Josh:
Yeah, we’ve experienced some of that unpleasantness in the past. Nothing that was as serious as what we dealt with a few weeks ago. As you guys are well aware, it’s for groups like us who have sensitive information being traded back and forth on a regular basis and money flowing in and out as our operations require. We had a third party and still do have a third party group that protects us and is part of our cybersecurity, but I guess no plan is foolproof. And a few weeks ago, one of my associates complained that some of her emails were missing and then her outbox was acting funny. So naturally we told her to just investigate and see what was happening. And so she spent the night doing that and I think everyone’s busy with their core work. You feel like if something’s acting strange on your outbox and outlook, it’s not exactly priority number one.
Maybe it should have been, but that issue lingered for a day or two. And then I guess she did a little bit of digging deeper and she saw that there was all these emails in her outbox that she didn’t send. And she’s like, well, okay, this is strange. And so she elevated that at that point up to our third party group. And it turned out over the course of 48 or 72 hours, someone had infiltrated our Outlook and our Microsoft Exchange, I guess, and was actually had broken in or hacked in and was sending emails from not only her email, with her email signature. So these were from the recipient’s perspective, completely authorized real emails that folks were getting and turned out that it wasn’t just her, it was someone in our controller’s department, one of our accounting department folks. And what this group did was they somehow infiltrated, they sent emails or they searched keywords like wire owed or wire outbound wire inbound invoice unpaid. And for a group like us working in commercial real estate, of course that’s a natural part of our day-to-Day operations. We’re sending wires in and out, not daily, but certainly weekly. And we have tenants that give us money and send us checks, send us wires. And so we’re an easy target for a group like that. And so they got ahold of someone that actually owed us six figures and we were expecting a wire that week.
Adam Levin:
Well, that’s one of the hallmarks of what they do is they crawl into your system how they get in could be somebody’s information was stolen in a breach elsewhere, and the same user ID and login is being used in the company that people use in another life or a third party vendor may have been breached. And as a result, that kind of credential situation is used exploited. This is certainly not a situation where someone in my world goes, well, I took Ambien last night and suddenly realized I sent a whole lot of emails that I didn’t realize I sent, or I have no idea this got there, but no, listen, it’s very disturbing. It’s very scary.
Josh:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s definitely scary. And so the scary part is that once that person or group or what have you is in your system and able to send emails from your outbox, basically they can represent themselves as a person in your business. And we do, at least in our business, 90% of our communication with folks is through email. And I’m sure that’s probably goes for other businesses as well. And so once you have that in hand, your power is limitless for that limited amount of time until the breach is actually recognized. And so this person through an associate and through someone in our accounting department was having conversations with folks back and forth multiple rounds. It wasn’t one email. So
Beau Friedlander:
This person being the person who hacked into the email, Josh correct.
Josh:
The group, the person, the hacker. Right.
Beau Friedlander:
I have a question for you now. Sure. I want to back up a little bit. Okay. The hacker went through emails until they were able to find a really good target, and that was somebody who owed six figures. Is that right? Correct. Now, how did they reach out to that person? Tell us about that part of the communication.
Josh:
They actually emailed the person that was our contact at this group. It was another real estate company that owed us some money for a transaction we help them do. And they said, Hey, we’re having issues with our banking. There’s a three month delay on something or other incoming wires or to fix the problem, it’s going to take weeks or months. Now,
Beau Friedlander:
Is that typical? Is that a real thing? Is that happening?
Josh:
No, no, not at all. But they formulated in a way that could potentially be plausible if someone isn’t paying attention. So it’s right on the frontier of plausibility. Right. And so this person kept saying, okay, well what are the new instructions? And sure, people change wire instructions from time to time. It’s not unheard of for someone to say, well send it to this bank, it’ll be easier for us or what have you. And so they set up this narrative that, hey, this is not where we want it sent. We want it sent somewhere else. The wire structures were accepted and we’re being processed actually. And it takes a little bit of s floppiness from both parties. So certainly from our perspective, we were a little sloppy with our cybersecurity or the way we deal with wires could have been improved.
Beau Friedlander:
Your perception of the situation on your side of the street was that your company could have done better on the cybersecurity front?
Josh:
Well, it could have done better on two fronts. I’m not privy or knowledgeable enough to say that our group that is protecting us from a cybersecurity perspective drop the ball or not. Certainly not. All I can say is that we did implement better security measures after which the question was asked, why didn’t we have that in place already?
Beau Friedlander:
Well, hindsight’s 2020, but cybersecurity practice, a strong cybersecurity practice can be as simple as making sure everybody in your organization is hyper paranoid. It can be that simple. And so it’s not just that you have the killer app that’s there to like a bug zapper in the yard killing everybody that comes anywhere near you. It’s really more that everyone in your organization understands what the threat is, the way it presents itself and what to look out for. So it sounds like there was a lapse somewhere in that front.
Josh:
Correct. So that’s what I meant by we were sloppy. I mean, if you’re sending wire instructions in the first place, we should have verbally confirmed those on the phone with someone at that firm, right? Oh, they
Beau Friedlander:
Didn’t.
Josh:
Well, they didn’t and we didn’t. So we just sent our wire instructions as a PDF, which was common practice, which isn’t anymore because we’re doing so many of these transactions. Sometimes you get a little sloppy. It’s human nature. I mean, this is for the million or $2 million, 3 million, 5 million, 10 million wires. Certainly we’re more careful and we get people on the phone and six figures in our neck of the woods is not small money, but it’s not something that people are focused on so much, which is where these hackers kind of prey on. Right.
Adam Levin:
Well, Josh, that’s why an awful lot of real estate organizations now in particular always have a warning saying, these are the wiring instructions, but before you wire, please call us to confirm.
Josh:
Correct. And that’s one of the things we’re implementing,
Beau Friedlander:
But it’s not that common, Adam, the last time I was recently working with people in your biz, Josh, and it was my lawyer who actually said, call,
Adam Levin:
But this should become a practice though in the real estate business.
Beau Friedlander:
Sure, sure it should, but it’s not ubiquitous.
Adam Levin:
And Josh, you guys can kind of spearhead this movement, nice publicity for you guys as well is to say, because obviously you’re part of an association when you get together, one of the things that you could be pushing is the fact that never, ever, ever send wiring instructions to anyone without a bold warning that you really need to call us to confirm. Because unfortunately, wire fraud is becoming more and more of a reality in our
Josh:
World. Certainly. Certainly I couldn’t agree more. And frankly, that should have been part of the policies, procedures of the group that we were working with as well. So it was a failure on several fronts and we’re all adapting to the new ways you have to protect yourself. And we have made those changes and hopefully we’ve enabled to factor our authorization or authentication, I dunno if I can never say that word correctly. So we’ve enabled, that’s one of the things that I thought we should have had before, but to your point, hindsight is 2020, so we have that now. It’s
Beau Friedlander:
So hard to have every piece in place and then to have human beings, actual people doing something like two-factor authentication when they’re like, I just want to go home. And you’re like, yeah, okay, but you need to log in again and do this thing. So I have a question for you though, Josh. So did the money get taken?
Josh:
No, it didn’t. And so fortunately I was called by my partner the morning of the third day, if you will, and he said, well, did you ask so-and-so to send an email to change our wiring instructions? And I said, absolutely not. That doesn’t sound like No. And then he didn’t even say bye. He just hung up the phone. Right, because he was onto what was happening. And so fortunately he was able to intercept it, and then that’s when everything came to light, like, oh my God, this is frightening. And then we went through all the emails. Then we got our third party security firm involved, and we kind of started putting things together that this group or this hacker or hackers really had control over, not only one of our lead accounting folks emails, but also an associate. And what’s interesting and smart on their part, if that’s the right word on the hacker’s part, is that they didn’t involve any of the execs like myself or my partners in this scheme. It was level,
Beau Friedlander:
So there was nobody in the C-suite. It was all people in management.
Josh:
And so that’s what gives me the perception at least, that this was an intelligent, complex, fraudulent group. Right? Clever. I mean, it was clever. Very, that’s a good word to use. So none of us were included because if I were to send wiring instructions, which is not typical, that would’ve raised red flags from the group that they were asking to change the instructions from. So they may have looked through the history to see who is typically doing this kind of stuff. I mean, it is scary because it’s a complex scheme. It wasn’t a one-off person who was, at least from my point of view, that went in just to try to scam us out of a few bucks. This was a complex criminal outfit
Travis Taylor:
That was, well, it sounds like they picked their targets very well, that as you said, it wasn’t the million dollar wire transfer, it was the six figures. It wasn’t the people at the very, very top that would’ve probably jumped or noticed something was wrong immediately. They went after the more mid-level management who are probably receiving a ton of emails and filtering that out. So just to see what they can actually respond to, but also that are probably getting a lot of attachments, especially PDFs and those PDF F attachments very often will have something like malware attached to them.
Josh:
I will add that they didn’t just go after that one wire, right? They sent a few of our tenants emails saying, you owe us back rent. Send 10 grand here, 20 grand there. So they just got further along on that wire that was the furthest along. They actually sent out more than a dozen or more of their emails to other tenants, and fortunately, those tenants just didn’t get around to it or they didn’t really get any traction with those, but it wasn’t a one thing that they were after.
Adam Levin:
The hackers in this area, many of them are really, really good, and they do an enormous amount of research because they realize there’s a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for them, so they do that. But to show you how really sophisticated this could be, Travis, do you remember the case? It was maybe a year ago with a fellow that was in Africa. He was very highly respected in his community. He was an elder in the church, and they found out that he was running this multimillion dollar scam where they were so technologically advanced they could get into your email, and as you sent out the wire transfer request, they actually changed the wiring instructions in transit. It wasn’t even that they got it, but that they were sitting in the email and before you sent something they did, it was as you sent something, they made the change.
Travis Taylor:
Wow. I remember hearing something about that. And a simple fact of the matter too is that if you have something that relatively minor, it’s not minor in terms of the damage it can do, but it’s minor in terms of the fact that it’s just looking for a specific couple of lines of text in an outgoing email that’s actually relatively simple to have a little script or just a minor piece of malware of some sort flying under the radar and making that one adjustment. It’s not the sort of thing like ransomware where the entire network had shut down. It’s just a little tiny edit that’s going out, which is a lot harder to spot ultimately.
Josh:
Yeah, scary stuff. Yeah, scary stuff. You
Beau Friedlander:
Described a man in the middle attack, Adam, just now this thing that was taking place with a changing of wire instructions in mid-flight, I’ve never heard of that, Travis. Is that a very common thing,
Travis Taylor:
Man in the middle attacks? Absolutely. No,
Beau Friedlander:
Not a man in the middle attack. Go ahead. Explain what a man in the middle attack is, first of all.
Travis Taylor:
I mean a man in the middle attack is more or less what it sounds like. It’s something where when you have a communication between two parties for instance, someone is able to intercept that and make an adjustment or just simply intercept the data for their own personal gain
Beau Friedlander:
And the ability to change wiring instructions, mid transmission.
Travis Taylor:
That’s not necessarily common, but at the same time, you can through, say in Microsoft office, there’s such a thing as macros that can do the equivalent of an autocorrect. A pretty basic example is I was on the same mobile account with my wife and every time I typed in the word miss, it would autocorrect and miss and love you, which for anyone who knows me well knows that is nothing I’m going to send anyone in a text. So at the same time, if you were to take any kind of say, office productivity app for instance, you could just say this is a typo correctness. And so if you’re using boilerplate, especially instructions for wiring, it would be possible to use something to just put in a relatively low profile bit of code there just to say and switch this out. In the same way that you could also change your outgoing email thing that IFTA start to type in Beaufor Beauwhat your email address is. If someone wanted to change that just to a different email address, I would very likely just start typing in bow and then hit send to whatever email address pops up, right? It’s these little tiny hacks that are really easy to fly under the radar because it’s not anything that you don’t have the stereotypical hacker story of the flaming skulls or evil cloud telling you you’ve been hacked. It’s just a little
Beau Friedlander:
Tiny, oh, your sister belong to us.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah, exactly. But
Adam Levin:
Travis, I’m even more disturbed about the fact that you weren’t sending me notes going, I love you, I’m sad,
Beau Friedlander:
But Josh, it sounds like you got off. I mean, it could have been worse, could have been a lot worse.
Josh:
Oh, no doubt. No doubt. It could have been a lot worse. We caught it right at the end there where it could, and what’s scary is there’s no recovery. Once that wire is out, it’s gone. And then the finger pointing starts was like, oh, well, we should have done this. I mean, it’s just bad. It’s bad for business. You lose the money. It reflects poorly on your own policies and procedures. It could have been awful, but we’re using it as a learning experience and growing from it.
Travis Taylor:
It could have been awful. And at the same time, it’s something where when you talk about the finger pointing, one of the reasons we talk about this as being the no shame zone is because it happens so far across the board with companies or even federal agencies and like everyone makes mistakes. It’s something where there’s legions of hackers and scammers out there waiting just for that one little slip up, and it only takes one misclick on an email attachment or one little tiny oversight there for them to pounce
Beau Friedlander:
Now. And one thing is to go back to the question of cybersecurity, and I think there should be no finger pointing whatsoever because cybersecurity is a very dynamic thing and it is often catch as catch can. The idea though, that they were able to find not the idea, but the reality that they were able to find good targets just by rifling through email would suggest that they, I mean, sure, maybe they were good and knew what they were looking for, but it also suggests that they might’ve been in there a while and that’s where cybersecurity systems and having a security person in charge of simply looking for trouble does matter because do you have any idea how long they were in there?
Josh:
You see, that’s a good point. We thought of that, well, gosh, how long did we have someone snooping around? Maybe they waited three weeks, educated themselves on certain deals and processes that we’re up to and then struck when they thought it was the right time. One of the frustrating things is we don’t know that. We don’t know how long they were in there. We don’t know how they got in there. Again, I don’t know if that’s a deficiency of the group that represents us from that perspective. I’m not an expert on hard
Beau Friedlander:
Say and not worth saying really.
Josh:
No. Yeah, and it really isn’t. And for all I know, they did their job and as best as they could, so I’m not here to point fingers to your point when I said that there would be finger pointing, not necessarily internally here in our group, but you’d say, well, why didn’t you guys from the folks that sent the money, right? You say, well, why didn’t you guys, I mean, why would you send it to a wire that
Adam Levin:
That’s them calling you right now?
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Why didn’t you confirm it with us? What the heck, guys? What the heck, guys? No, there you go. And that’s bad for business and it’s glad we avoided that because it wouldn’t have been good. But
Adam Levin:
Josh knows another example. People go, well, how do they know who does what in our company? All you need to do is go to LinkedIn, and you’d be surprised how much information they would get as to who’s in your company and what they do.
Beau Friedlander:
We got to get into some helpful tips here. I mean, if I were thinking about going to work tomorrow and I worked in Josh’s business, I’d be like, I just don’t want to go. What are some tips? What are some things that any company, small, medium, large, can do to make themselves, now, obviously it’s impossible to ward off all attacks but make themselves harder to hit Adam?
Adam Levin:
Well, there are a few things. We go back to our three m’s. The first M, the big M really is how do you minimize your risk of exposure, reduce your attackable surface, and it’s everything from long and strong passwords or using password management systems. It’s about multifactor authentication so that there’s always a check as to who’s getting into the system. It’s sending a message to everybody that works in the company that the one thing you should not be doing is ever using a password or user ID that you use any place else, because if wherever you’re using it gets compromised, then they use that to leapfrog into the rest of your world. So you should definitely be doing that. People should be really careful in terms of the attachments they open in terms of people that they communicate with, and whenever they see something that just seems a little off, don’t think, oh, it’s a mistake. It really could be an indication of a bigger problem. So that’s why when your colleague noticed first of all that her email was missing and that suddenly there was a lot of other email that she had no idea should be there, there, it’s very good that she notified somebody immediately and said, Houston, we have a problem.
Travis Taylor:
One thing that can be a little bit of a hassle for a lot of organizations, but can end up preventing a pretty nasty hack sometimes is just to make sure, and there’s a bit of controversy around this, but that you are assigning people passwords that they don’t get to pick their own. You can get a bit of grief from that, and yeah, that’s something I’m sure anyone working in it would absolutely dread because people argue with that so much. That being the case, if you have someone who is reusing their password and they’re in a position in your company to even just be able to check an email that they have and downloaded an attachment, that is a huge, huge area for entry there.
Adam Levin:
Oh, and another quick question too is that when people connect remotely into your systems, which I assume many people would, especially in the environment that we’ve all just lived through, are they working with work only devices or are they allowed to use personal devices in order to connect into your network?
Josh:
So we do allow remote connecting from personal devices. So you have your outlook on your iPhone, which is non-work. Technically a non-work device and laptops are allowed. So yeah. Yeah, I think Beaubrings up a good point. I mean, there’s multiple entry points in which you have weaknesses, and so you have to be vigilant. We did a good job of educating our employees and associates on if they do see something funny or if they don’t feel right about something from a cybersecurity perspective to call the group that we’ve hired, that’s where they’re there. And that probably saved the day actually, even though we should have had better policies and procedures on wire confirmations and what have you, that did save the day, and so we did do some things right. I think education, you had a huge win,
Beau Friedlander:
Josh. You had a huge win. When that employee called and said, I got a problem, there was a huge win.
Josh:
Huge. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Beau Friedlander:
Absolutely said he should be falling from the ceiling. That’s
Adam Levin:
The ultimate no shame zone is that you should encourage every single employee if they have a problem, if they think they might’ve clicked on the wrong link. Anything that feel free to tell us, we’re here, we’re part of, this is the community. We’re here to protect the community. And another thing that many companies do is they actually supply the device to their employees, and when they supply that device, they make sure that all the security protocols that they feel comfortable that they want to see are on that device. So it’s part of training and supplying device with the kind of security that’s really being overseen by the people that you trust to protect you on all the devices used by your employees who are communicating with the company.
Beau Friedlander:
Alright, Adam, what if the company is small and they can’t buy devices for everybody? What then?
Adam Levin:
Well, I think that way then, at least anyone who uses a device that they use to connect into the company should, and I know this seems a little Orwellian, but they really should have the security people from the company or the security people that the company is retained as a third party vendor to actually look at any device that’s being connected into that company. Because trust me, whatever it costs is nothing compared to the agony and financial upheaval that you’ll go through based on the fact that your company has been breached.
Beau Friedlander:
And cybersecurity in this regard is like a little tiny, I hate to say it, but I think it’s true. It’s a little bit like going to the embarrassing kinds of doctors who do the embarrassing kind of tests. So you have to, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.
Adam Levin:
Think of it as a digital proctology test.
Beau Friedlander:
I knew you were going there.
Josh:
Yeah, I think that’s a good one.
Adam Levin:
And again, think of this as a learning experience in a teachable moment, and frankly, to get through a teachable moment without having an extinction level event in an organization, that’s a big deal. That’s a big deal. So that count your blessings
Travis Taylor:
And get the word out. That’s something where a lot of folks we’ve talked to after they’ve been targeted, one of the things that they say is, I’m going to go now tell other people, because it’s relatively easy to have that happen. So just warning others is pretty key and something big that we try to do here.
Josh:
Yeah, no, first of all, God bless you guys. I mean, it’s a good topic. It’s a worthwhile conversation that that needs to happen in the business world. We certainly have had these conversations and probably saved us from a larger catastrophe when we’re happy to share our experiences, and I was thrilled to offer it up for you guys here to share. And it’s important that we help each other out. It’s an important topic. It’s a worthwhile topic, and I appreciate you guys spreading the word.
Adam Levin:
Well, listen, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience with us, and it is very important. Collaboration, cooperation, communication, the three Cs on top of our three s, this is kind of what it’s all about. This is how we better protect ourselves.
Josh:
Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. Throw
Adam Levin:
Some confetti on that
Josh:
Employee. Yeah, yeah. We’re going to buy her some cupcakes at the very least.
Adam Levin:
Thanks, Josh. What? The hack is a loud tree media production in partnership with Larj media. That’s LARJ Media. You can find What the Hack wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to follow us on social media and find additional information at adamlevin.com.
