Beau Friedlander:
Adam. So I actually, I kind of got this week.
Adam Levin:
How did that happen?
Beau Friedlander:
My computer, when it started, it asked for the startup disc. And when I said, here’s my password, it said, Nope, that’s not your password. Even though that was totally my password,
Adam Levin:
You forgot your password.
Beau Friedlander:
Nope. I typed it at the speed of mud so slowly, so carefully. And it still, no matter what I did, it said, Nope, that’s not your password.
Adam Levin:
Painful.
Beau Friedlander:
Very. So here’s where it got interesting. I restarted my computer maybe four times each time I did it. I had these echoes in my head of 1998. When you did that, your computer was progressively getting more erased or messed up, and then all of a sudden it just worked. And I was not God and I was happy, but oh my God, I was terrified. I was waiting for the, I totally will give you your password, Mr. Freelander. If you give me one Bitcoin. I was waiting for it and it didn’t pop up, but then somehow it just started working. So I have no idea what
Adam Levin:
Happened. So no frozen screen?
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah,
Adam Levin:
No skull and bones. Nope, no talk. A clock ticking back from 90 hours
Beau Friedlander:
Telling you
Adam Levin:
Your life was about
Beau Friedlander:
To end it. It was like airplane. The movie, when he says the tower,
Speaker 3:
The tower
Beau Friedlander:
Rapunzel, Rapunzel, Rapunzel. Then he unplugs the whole airport and says, oh, just kidding.
Adam Levin:
Now listen, it can be very daunting when this thing happens, and we’re going to be talking about a story later today where something kind of akin to that happened to somebody we know. Welcome to what The Hack. I’m Adam Levin, author of Swiped How to Protect Yourself in a World Full of Scammers, fissures, and Identity Thieves and Longtime Consumer Advocate.
Beau Friedlander:
And I’m Bo Friedlander. I write a lot about scams, hacks, fraud, and all kinds of online crime.
Travis Taylor:
I’m Travis. I’m the disembodied voice floating around Bo and Adam’s head.
Beau Friedlander:
So what’s going on today, Adam?
Adam Levin:
Well, today we have a guest, a wonderful guest, Joyce Berger from New Jersey, and we’re going to be talking today about a technology related scam. Joyce, welcome to the show. Thank
Beau Friedlander:
You. How’s everything in New Jersey?
Joyce:
Well, the sun is out, so that always makes me happy. The snow is just about gone. I’ve had my second vaccine two days ago. Mazel Tov! Amazing, and I’m glad I did not have to cancel this. I felt really sick for several hours yesterday. It was like a faucet. It came on and it shut off.
Adam Levin:
It is wonderful that Joyce is with us in particular because when I lived in New Jersey three centuries ago, there was a great phrase by our, at that time, governor Tom Cain, and his line in his best Bostonian accent was New Jersey and you,
Speaker 6:
New Jersey and you perfect together,
Joyce:
Perfect together,
Adam Levin:
Perfect together. So having Joyce with us today is like New Jersey, Brooklyn and Arizona and Oregon.
Speaker 6:
Perfect together,
Joyce:
Perfect together. Well, I’ve lived here all my life.
Adam Levin:
Hey there at campers. Look, if you have a story about being a victim of a hack, we’d love to hear about it. Give us a call at two five two eighteen twenty eight. That’s 6 2 3 2 5 2 18 28 or email stories at Whatthehackpod.com.
Beau Friedlander:
Now, Joyce, where in New Jersey are you?
Joyce:
Short Hills, Essex County,
Beau Friedlander:
Horse Country. No, no. I always say that to everybody whenever they tell me New Jersey and where they’re from. I say horse country, and they always say no. Well,
Joyce:
I’m glad you didn’t say what, exit on the turnpike.
Beau Friedlander:
No, I know better than that.
Joyce:
Oh, I hate that.
Beau Friedlander:
So what do you do for fun out there?
Joyce:
I’m a big walker hiker, amateur chef, sourdough bread baker, big reader, knitter grandmother
Adam Levin:
And raconteur extraordinaire.
Joyce:
I’m married to my wonderful guy, Jerry. For 50 plus years I worked in PR.
Beau Friedlander:
Now Adam already knew Jerry, so how do you guys all know each other?
Adam Levin:
Jerry and I know each other through stock market, financial management, all that. But anyway, Joyce, it’s great to have you, great to have you on the show today and to talk to you basically about your experience. So give us the lead up. How did this all kind of unfold?
Joyce:
I logged onto my laptop. I was about to play a game with three friends, which I do regularly on Mondays. And
Beau Friedlander:
So what’s the game? What’s the game that you play, Joyce?
Joyce:
Good old Mahjong.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh my gosh. You play Mahjong on Zoom?
Joyce:
Well, no, it’s an app online because we have not been able to play in person. So some clever person figured out how to put the game online as an app. It’s actually quite good.
Beau Friedlander:
So who do you play?
Joyce:
I play with three other friends. One’s in Arizona near you, Adam two are here, but in different towns and we could chat with each other. It’s actually quite good.
Beau Friedlander:
So is there gossip? Is this like a real Mahjong game or serious playing?
Joyce:
No, we don’t talk. No, we seriously play. So who
Beau Friedlander:
Wins
Joyce:
The luckiest?
Adam Levin:
Anyone in particular? They’ll let me, it
Joyce:
Depends on the computer throws the tile. Anybody interested go on real mahjong.com. So to continue my story, so I’m logging on, I know they’re waiting for me and a flash comes onto my computer screen. I remember it being white and not only was it doing that, but a voice began speaking with me. Hello. Wow. I’m telling you, my brain just, I froze. My brain wasn’t
Adam Levin:
Thinking, was it like the voice of God?
Joyce:
No, it was a female voice. I was so shocked by it. I just froze. And there was a number to call and I actually called this number,
Adam Levin:
But did they indicate what the number was attached to? Did it say you’re calling Microsoft, you calling Apple?
Joyce:
Yes, I believe I was calling Apple. I was panicked like, oh my God, my computer.
Beau Friedlander:
And did it sound Joyce? Did it sound like a recording or did it sound like a person who was live speaking to you?
Joyce:
That’s a good question.
Beau Friedlander:
So maybe there was some breath sounds or was it just kind of more of a It
Joyce:
Sounded real. I mean I believed it.
Adam Levin:
Wow. Now did it sound like an urgent voice or
Joyce:
Yes, it did sound urgent. Threatening
Beau Friedlander:
Or not threatening?
Joyce:
No, not threatening. Just
Beau Friedlander:
Like, oh, here’s this thing you must do, call this number, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so you did what happened when you called it? Where did you
Adam Levin:
End up it? It wasn’t like a danger Will Robbins and danger.
Joyce:
No.
Beau Friedlander:
So you think you may have been transferred to a call line somewhere in Asia?
Joyce:
Yes, but the voice was clear, the connection was clear
Beau Friedlander:
What happened when they picked up,
Joyce:
It was a voice that sounded familiar from other calls like this. She said to me, you authorized $5,000 to be removed from your Chase account. And that was like, okay, they’re in there because Chase is the bank. And that really worried me that they knew that. And then he said, I’m going to call Chase or the fraud department and they will help you. And then he connected me to this other guy, didn’t take long, and then he took over and that’s when I started doubting what he was saying, but I’m still listening to this. And then he tells me, in order to stop that money from going out, you want to put it back in. It was confusing at that point other than go get this money, put it in there. And I knew something was very wrong with that. Then at that point, my husband was working upstairs, happened to come down where I was sitting in my kitchen where I’m often, my router is nearby and I’m sort of saying, chase, there’s a problem.
And he immediately, I’m going to chase, and I’m like, now the guy is hearing this. I said, I told you not to tell anyone. So at that point he knows we’ve caught on. And then Jerry left quite immediately to go down to the bank and then I hung up and then they tried to call me back twice. Both guys, I took their names down, I saw what numbers came up on the phone and they were very Americanized sounding names to me, and I didn’t even think that went along with what I was hearing. But that being said, then I hung up and that was the end of it. Oh, and would you like to know what I did after that? I called up on the advice of the Chase gentleman. I called up TransUnion, Experian, and Equifax. I froze our credit reports. I changed the password on my Chase account. I got a new credit card and the story has a happy ending. No money was taken, and that’s kind of it.
Adam Levin:
Well, you did the right things to remedy the situation. That’s clear. The point also is that the advice that we can all give together, including you based on your experiences, that if something pops up on your screen and flashes and tells you to call a number, don’t call the number.
Beau Friedlander:
I think, Adam, why don’t you explain what the scam is? Because it is a basic, it’s a gift card scam.
Adam Levin:
This one is more of a gift card scam than a technology scam. The technology scam, which I think people should also know about is when something flashes on your screen tells you to call a number, you call a number and they tell you to download something into your computer because there’s a problem with your computer. A gift card scam is when they basically give you instructions to go and pay or to get gift cards and then provide them the authorization codes and then they will take care of you, whatever the problem is they presented to you by activating these authentication codes. And the problem there is once it’s on a gift card and once you give someone the authorization code, it’s gone forever. The whole purpose is to get you to give them money without it being traceable. The second they get that code, they’re gone, the money’s gone. And any chance you have of trying to figure out how to recover, the money is gone.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow. So when you were doing that, Adam Joyce lit up because she was going to tell you Now what happened, Joyce,
Joyce:
I totally forgot this part. Sorry. The first Apple guy says to me, I want you to download this software called Team View. I believe it was, and I hate to say it, but I did it and then all the computer flashing numbers are all that, and I’m looking at it and like, oh my God, what did I do? I forgot that part. But that happened too.
Adam Levin:
And then I understand that you went down to Apple and had them take a look at your computer, right?
Joyce:
Yes, I did.
Beau Friedlander:
So what did they find when you went down there? Had you downloaded any kind of spyware or was it okay?
Joyce:
It was okay, great. It was totally okay. They told me that when these connections are severed or when they end, they’re severed. There was nothing on my computer at all, fortunately. But
Beau Friedlander:
They had been in your computer for a moment with you.
Joyce:
They were,
Adam Levin:
And this is the problem, and that is it may not have been a problem in your case, but for many other people, once these guys get in your computer, they root around, they could leave malware in your computer, which means that every time you log into one of your accounts, it could be transmitting that information back to these hackers or scammers or it could at some point put something that anytime that you attempt to log in somewhere, it takes you to a different clone site, which looks like the real site, but in fact isn’t, is designed to get even more information from you.
Beau Friedlander:
I want to take a lifeline here to Travis. Travis. If somebody uses a team view or one of these overrides where they can look at your screen with you in real time, are they also able to put malware on your computer at that point? Or
Travis Taylor:
TeamViewer can take over a computer. So what that means is they can go and go say to a webpage or a website that will download the malware to your computer. But yeah, it’s a notoriously insecure program. It was the thing that was being used in February for the attempted poisoning of that city in Florida. They had TeamViewer installed under
Beau Friedlander:
Where a hacker tried to increase the amount of lie in the water for Ocala outside of Tampa, and that actually would’ve been fatal for hundreds of thousands of people.
Travis Taylor:
So it is not malware in and of itself, but if someone can get you to put that on their computer, then they will have pretty much full access so
Beau Friedlander:
They can see, but they’re in there. So if I’m in, we’re doing that team view thing, and you’re near my computer, you can open up a tab in my browser and download malware, correct? You can correct.
Travis Taylor:
Yep.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow.
Adam Levin:
So please don’t, Travis.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah.
Beau Friedlander:
So Joyce, how long were they in your computer? I’m just curious.
Joyce:
Good. 15 minutes.
Adam Levin:
Yeah, you can do a lot of damage in 15 minutes. So that’s why it’s good in your case that at least from what you know and from what Apple told you that they didn’t but they could have
Beau Friedlander:
Correct. Now, I mean one of the first things that I think Travis would suggest, and Adam and I we’re all going to tell you that you need to be running antivirus software that is trusted and updated and on 24 7. So if your computer decides to do something funny because of something funny they did in your computer, you will know right away. So that is probably the first order of business here is to make sure that you have antivirus software on your computer and it’s updated and functioning. I am not endorsing any product here, but I happen to use Malwarebytes and it seems to be very serviceable. I do pay and I pay because I tend to believe that companies that ask me to pay for their service are more on the hook to give me a good service. And there’s another old adage, which I’m going to, I think Adam can spell out better than I can, which is whenever something’s free,
Adam Levin:
You are the product.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah, you’re the product. That’s not free. I mean, they’re going for your private information or something. So that makes
Joyce:
Sense.
Beau Friedlander:
That would be my advice. What else? What else, Adam?
Adam Levin:
Well, I think the other thing also is so many people are attacked by these kinds of scams and many people go, I don’t know why anyone’s looking at me. I mean just me. But what people don’t understand is that to a hacker, you are El Dorado, you are where the gold is because you have data, you have information, you have financial information or in their eyes you could be a tributary to a larger river, which means you may not be Target, but you may be the HVAC subcontractor that has access into target and you personally may be an employee of that company. So oftentimes hackers get into companies and expose the data of sometimes millions of people by compromising somebody that works at a company that does business with their target.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, that is, so to put this into real terms for you, Joyce, your next Mahjong game could turn into a group jeopardy match where everybody is exposed to whatever you were exposed to. And I think that that’s sort of where it becomes a community effort to say, I’m going to take care of my stuff and make sure that I’m as secure as possible because I want to make sure you’re as secure as possible and my friends are, and that when I go online, nobody is being, it’s almost like what we’ve experienced with COVID-19 where I am going to try and stay healthy so that I can help you stay healthy. It’s very similar. They’re both viruses. Just one happens to be digital and one biological.
The thing that you did, Joyce, that is so you may not feel great about it, you may feel like, oh, I cannot believe I fell for that. However, you did something that a lot of people don’t do, and by doing what you did, you probably saved the Mahjong game. So what you did was you raised your hand, you said something happened. It’s just important. Again, what do you want to do? You want to protect the Mahjong game. You want everybody to have a good time and not have to deal with a phony banker at two in the morning somewhere on the other side of the planet. And I’m going to be joining you in some Majong fairly soon. Sorry to say you’re stuck with me now.
Joyce:
I would love it to teach a man how to play. No, actually men do play. It’s an old Chinese game. It is good. It’s it’s challenge.
Beau Friedlander:
I’m in, I’m in.
Joyce:
Well, I guess
Adam Levin:
All’s well that ends well. We call that a teachable moment. But anyway, listen Joyce, we can’t thank you enough for being on the show.
Joyce:
Totally enjoyed it everyone,
Adam Levin:
And this is a great object lesson and a teachable moment and thank you.
Beau Friedlander:
Super nice to meet you, Joyce.
Joyce:
Likewise.
Adam Levin:
Alright, so let me bring Travis back into the conversation, Travis as our tech guru. Give us a wrap up here.
Travis Taylor:
Sure. There are several scams making the rounds right now that specifically target Apple users. What they’re looking for is first of all, to get you into a feeling of panic. They will call you saying that they’re with Apple support. AppleCare or Apple support can be very good, but they’re not so good that they can tell you that your computer is broken and then call you and contact you to let you know that. So usually what they’ll do is they’ll try to get you to do that and then get you to call. They’ll try to get you to install software, but from there they just see whatever they can get out of you. If they can get you to contact the bank on their behalf, they’ll do that. If they can get you to provide a credit card number, they’ll do that. If they can get you to install software to your computer though, that is very much the mother load for them because from there that means they can access any number of your other files even outside of your say iCloud account.
Adam Levin:
It’s a scary thing. Technology can be a mystery to so many people,
Travis Taylor:
And that really does depend on people having that constant fear of stepping on a landmine that, oh no, I hit the wrong button on my computer. Is it now broken? And then so when someone tells them that and then also provides them with the solution saying, this part of your computer is broken, here’s how I can help. They are going to be frantic and anxious to actually get that solution. But one thing I thought was interesting that the FTC pointed out was that Apple users are often targeted because of the fact that Apple computers and products tend to be more expensive. So they’re going after people that they think are a little bit more, well-heeled as it were, which makes them a better target because if they’re going to empty out their bank account for instance, or if they’re going to get any valuable information, if you have someone that’s using say a new top of the line shiny MacBook, or if they’re using a 8-year-old Lenovo laptop, the cost difference there usually ends up meaning that the target is more appealing.
Beau Friedlander:
I wondered, Travis, how do they, whoever they are, know what kind of computer I’m using? I mean, I get that they might know that I’m on an Apple, but how are they going to know that I’m using the latest MacBook, for example, or MacBook Pro?
Travis Taylor:
A lot of that can come from your browser. So if you say go to a webpage or if you have a tracking cookie on your webpage, everywhere you go online actually leaves a significant footprint. Part of that says what browser you’re using, what browser version you’re using, what operating system you’re using, and if it’s something that’s relatively recent or if you’re using, say the most recent version of Safari and the most recent version of the operating system, that implies that it’s going to be a newer computer,
Beau Friedlander:
That’s terrifying. So
Adam Levin:
Is this called Data Dust?
Travis Taylor:
It’s a good term for it. Yeah, I think so. It’s digital thumbprints. There’s any number of ways to put it, but really, I mean it’s something that it doesn’t even need to be done by hackers. Google Analytics, for instance, can tell you if you have a website, just who got on and where they’re coming from, what kind of computer they’re using and so on. It’s just the act of opening up a webpage is pretty much opening a lot of information up about you that most people aren’t really aware
Beau Friedlander:
Of. Next time you play Mahjong, you’re going to be talking to anybody in India or Bangladesh or wherever the heck Joyce got transferred to.
Adam Levin:
Yeah, I would prefer not to do that, and that’s my message to anyone is if something is flashing on your screen, if it tells you to call a phone number, don’t do it. Just remember, if they want to get into your head, one of the best ways to get into your head is to get into your computer
Travis Taylor:
What the hack is, loud Tree Media Production in partBergership with large media. That’s LARJ Media. You can find what the hack wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to follow us on social media and find more information@adamlevin.com.
Adam Levin:
He eats fried cheese.
Beau Friedlander:
It’s true. I actually microwave it.
