Travis Taylor:
So Beau and Adam.
Adam Levin:
Travis?
Travis Taylor:
I was reading about something sort of scary the other day. It involves more of a gray area with malware apps,
Beau Friedlander:
Gray. You say,
Travis Taylor:
Have you guys ever heard of stalkerware?
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah.
Adam Levin:
Yes.
Beau Friedlander:
It’s what I wear when I’m hunting people.
Travis Taylor:
No, it’s a type of app that you can use to track people without their necessarily knowing.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, I know this one, this is the one that like shows up in your phone as a calculator, but it’s actually recording everything you do?
Travis Taylor:
Or reading your texts, what have you.
Beau Friedlander:
Reading your texts, yeah.
Adam Levin:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but usually you put apps into two categories, malware, not malware. And then there’s that gray zone. And this one seems to be in a gray zone where it was originally all about good intentions, keeping tabs on your kids to make sure they’re not getting in trouble, making sure if you have a relative suffering from dementia or Alzheimer’s that you would be able to know where they were and be able to get a help to them as fast as possible. But then this came along and this is much more nefarious when used the wrong way by people with bad intentions, right? If you’re dealing with an abusive spouse or an ex lover who really wants to know where you are, what you’re up to, what you’re doing, what’s going on, this can be pretty terrifying.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, and also it could also be categorized as what the government’s now calling killer ware, which is that it can really end badly for somebody who is on the victim side of a stalker ware exploit.
Travis Taylor:
Right. Or even if you’re trying to meet with a divorce attorney or set up your own bank account, or what have you, it can be terribly invasive.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, the good news is we do have an article on adamlevin.com about stalker ware and how to protect yourself against it. But yeah, it’s something to be worried about and something to be careful about.
Adam Levin:
Welcome to What the Hack? A show about hackers, scammers and the people they go after. I’m Adam Levin defender of the defenseless, author of Swiped, founder of Cyber Scout. Cyberterian.
Beau Friedlander:
I’m Beau Friedlander. And my social security number is-
Travis Taylor:
And I’m Travis Taylor, resident tech guy, and more cyber terrier than terian, I suppose
Adam Levin:
Today on the show, we’re continuing our conversation with Axton Betz-Hamilton, so if you haven’t heard part one, start there.
Speaker 4:
Axton Betz-Hamilton was 19 when she first requested a copy of her credit report. she expected a high score, but got exactly the opposite.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
My credit report was 10 pages long, full of fraudulent credit card entries and associated collection agency entries.
Speaker 4:
She learned her identity had been stolen years earlier when she was just 11.
Adam Levin:
Axton grew up dealing with the aftermath of her parents’ repeated identity theft and her own struggles, as well as being one of the first known cases of a child, having their identity stolen.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
You know, if I would walk through a store with mom, I would look at people and think, oh, is it you? Are you the thief? Are you the thief? Are you the thief? And that was what was going through my head. That really messes with your sense of trust. That’s still something that I off and on struggle with today.
Adam Levin:
After struggling through college to rebuild her credit, Axton finally found the person responsible her and her family trauma.
Speaker 4:
But the biggest shock was who stole it, her own mother.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
And not only did she steal my identity, she stole my father’s identity, as well as my grandfather’s identity. She ruined her own credit and then moved on to ours.
Speaker 4:
Axton discovered it after her mother had died.
Adam Levin:
All right.
Beau Friedlander:
Let’s do it.
Travis Taylor:
Okay.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
All right.
Adam Levin:
And now we begin,
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
My mom had been diagnosed with leukemia on the very same day that I officially finished my doctoral program. And she passed away from leukemia six months later.
Adam Levin:
I’m sorry.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
And two weeks after that, my dad called me and he was livid. So this is February 25th, 2013. This date is burned into my brain. And he called me up and he’s just yelling at me for running a credit card over limit in 2001. And I said, what credit card is it? And he told me, and I said, “Dad, that was one of the credit cards that was taken out my name as part of the identity theft.” And he said, well, it’s in a file box of your mother’s. And it’s in here in a file folder with your birth certificate.
Beau Friedlander:
Whoa.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Yeah. And so my blood ran cold because I had my birth certificate, the original that was handwritten and I knew where it was, it was in my house. What birth certificate was this? And come to find out, it was a certified copy that was issued from the county health department on June 7th, 2000. So it wasn’t the original. So that was the credit card and the birth certificate together. I knew then that she was the one and that her identity had never been stolen.
So my dad’s the kind of guy that, when he starts going through a room and he decides he wants to throw stuff away, it’s all going away. And so I said, “Dad, stop throwing things away until I get there.” I said, anything that looks financial, that you don’t know anything about, just put it on the work bench. And this was in an outbuilding on our property. I said, I’ll come home and I’ll take a look at it over spring break, which would’ve been in another two weeks. By that point, there was a mountain of papers on this work bench that dad had found in this out building where mom had basically just rat holed things in old backpacks. And literally in between the pages of old books, you know, you have to open the book and then receipts and different things would fall out.
She did not pay their income taxes for the majority of the preceding 13 years. Both federal and state. Hadn’t been paying the property taxes. She actually paid the property taxes in January 2013, right before the sheriff was going to put the property up for sale. And dad and I didn’t know that. So there was evidence that she had done that multiple times where she had been delinquent on the property taxes. She was applying for credit cards in dad’s name, my name, but or recently his name and my grandfather’s name. There are some indications of employment fraud too.
Adam Levin:
Many credit cards were there that she was applying for that you could see?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Oh, dozens. And most of them were store credit cards. Like clothing store credit cards, because they’re easier to get.
Adam Levin:
And their interest rates are significantly higher.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Right. But she wasn’t paying them so she didn’t care. And I told dad, you know, all those clothes that we went through after she died and gave to charity, she didn’t pay for those. We found evidence from the credit cards that she did get from these different clothing stores, she wasn’t paying for them.
Beau Friedlander:
So she was living a parallel, weird, criminal life among you.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Right. So I totally became an amateur cold case investigator with this.
Beau Friedlander:
Wait, there’s more to this story after this?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
There’s so much more to this story.
So I got into her Facebook account and she was using her maiden name on her Facebook account, which a lot of women do that, you know, that wasn’t really a red flag me prior to her passing away. But I found over 4,000 private messages that she had written to high school friends of hers and others. And in going through them, there are these really vivid stories of things that are just wrong. Like that my dad had cheated on her and had left her and gotten remarried. And then also my dad had died and that she was engaged this other guy. She did have an engagement ring.
Beau Friedlander:
She did?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
That she apparently bought herself because we found the receipt. It’s actually the ring that I found in her jewelry box, because I couldn’t find her wedding ring. The ring set that I found in her jewelry box that I used in my own wedding that was in her hospital room right before she passed away. So I wore that ring as my substitute wedding ring. That was her fake, nasty engagement ring for an engagement that didn’t even exist.
Beau Friedlander:
Well, so she didn’t have another life with another family anywhere that she was also doing identity theft with, she just was telling stories to people?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Yes. There’s some veins of truth and stories that I’ve been able to verify. A lot of it, I haven’t been able to verify.
Beau Friedlander:
And this is how you found out that there was over a half a million dollars in debt, all told?
We’re going to need to you, Axton, about what people can do now. Young people and not young people alike, to protect themselves from this. And we know and we talk about it all the time that these kind of crimes are often perpetrated by the people closest to us because they have the opportunity, moreso than somebody who’s trying to guess at your information or steal it.
Adam Levin:
Axton is absolutely considered a national expert on this. She’s dedicated significant portion of her life to learning what the threats are and how to defend against them. She lived through the threats and did the defense.
Beau Friedlander:
What’s the very first thing you’ll tell … I have two children. One is 17 and one is 19. When they were 15 and 17 or something, I got them both credit cards in my name that I could monitor. They’re my credit card with their names on the credit cards so I could monitor and get them used to using it. It was just one idea. I don’t even know if it’s a good idea. You teach this stuff. What do you recommend for parents and for young people?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Sure. So above all else, communication and financial awareness is key. So one of the things that gets people into trouble is that they don’t want to talk about finances or they’re not comfortable talking about finances. And that was true in my own family, to some extent. And that, I think, enabled my mom to do some of the things that she did. So understanding credit, understanding identity theft. For young adults who are just turning 18, one of the first things they should do is get their credit report. Look at what’s on it. Start disputing things that are there that are incorrect, if that’s the case, I have students in my intro to financial literacy course pull their credit report for a class assignment. And one of the things that they’ll often tell me, they’ll come to me and say, “Well, annual credit report shows that there was no information. What do I do?” That’s good. That means there’s no credit in your name that shouldn’t be there. No one was using your identity from 0 to 17. That’s good. That’s but that knowledge is power.
Adam Levin:
Axton, in your experience, have you found that, that people tend to get a credit report, look at it, their eyes glaze over, although credit reports are getting much better now, and it’s almost like I did it. But then they don’t do anything about it. They don’t don’t look. In particular, look for things that they didn’t do.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Right. So that is something that I’ve, to some degree, encountered as a challenge. And just it’s important to sit down and look at every item. So any negative account information, any positive account information, because just because there’s an account that’s being reported positively doesn’t necessarily mean it’s your account. Somebody else could have opened a credit card in your name and be making payments on that. Also check and see under the inquiries, if there are any inquiries on there that you didn’t make. Look under the aliases to see if there are any names that are reported using your social security number that aren’t your names. So that was something that was true on my credit report as well. Those are all indications that there’s potential identity theft. So look at every item. Just because there’s not something screaming at you from the top of the credit report that says, “This is a negative account.” There’s there are more potential indicators and you have to dig a little more deeply with the credit report.
Travis Taylor:
One thing I’m wondering about is the emotional element involved here. Do you have any advice for people, especially young people who find out that their credit’s been stolen or their identity’s been stolen, any kind of resources, just to help them grasp with the real betrayal that happens there?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Right. So in the research world, we have been slow to acknowledge the emotional, as well as the physical consequences. I have a paper coming out soon about that. But one thing that I think is critical and I have a book that I’m looking at right now, is to recognize that oftentimes in these cases, particularly when a family member is the offender, there’s trauma here. And my research demonstrates that in cases where a family member is the offender, this is a tool in an abuser’s toolbox, there’s other abuse going on. And depending on that type of abuse, there may be additional forms of recourse for that victim, but they have to be ready. And they can be referred to different referral sources, such as for medical care and mental health services and different support groups. In fact, there are some identity theft victims support groups out there in larger cities that I’ve noticed over the years. But I think folks need to recognize that, yeah, they’ve been traumatized. Unfortunately, in greater society, most identity theft victims are not seen as experiencing something traumatic, but it can be a traumatic experience.
Adam Levin:
The isolation that you experienced, do you find that, in the cases that you’ve studied, that that is common?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Yeah. So in the cases I’ve studied, it’s actually been kind of humbling for me because my case is not the worst. That’s far from the worst.
Adam Levin:
What is the worst that you’ve seen?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
The worst I’ve seen is one case, their father was the offender and the father had also sold the child into human trafficking. There was physical abuse, there was emotional abuse. There was sexual abuse within the family and the identity theft and the father sold the child into human trafficking. And she’s doing well. I think it’s important to recognize that victims can have resilience. Resilience in the face of identity theft, of course, is a positive thing. And there are more stories like mine that are being presented in the media and in different books and this particular victim, with her situation, she got away from the human trafficking. She was living in the woods for a while, while in high school. So she was still going to school, finding ways to get her basic needs met, albeit, not the best situation. And she now has a master’s degree. She, after reading my book, she’s working on a book about her experience. So there are some great stories of triumph that emerge from these traumatic situations. But again, we need to acknowledge that identity theft victimization, particularly when a family member is the offender, can be a traumatic experience. And it’s not necessarily the only form of abuse that’s going on within the family.
Adam Levin:
When this goes on in a family, oftentimes the police will tell you, as you know, oftentimes people don’t talk about it.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Right.
Adam Levin:
And I had a situation, a friend of mine, his father open credit card accounts in his name while he was helping my friend open credit cards, because he was going off to college. And he found out his dad had run up $30,000 worth of credit card bills. And he went to him and he said, “Dad, what’s going.” I said, “Well, I needed to.” He said, “Well, you’ve got to help me here because I owe $30,000 to credit card companies.” His father said, “I can’t, I don’t have the money to do it.” And then he said, “Well, the only other way that I can help myself is I’ve got to report this.” And his dad looked at him and smiled and said, “What are you going to do? I’m your father?” Because you have so many people within family units that refuse to rat out their parents, their kids, their siblings.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Absolutely. And that’s something that I’ve found to be true just in recruiting participants for my studies. I have lots of victims that reach out to me regarding my book and my story, and we’ll talk and I’ll say, “Hey, I’m recruiting identity theft victims for this study or that study, you know, would you like to participate?” They don’t want to talk about it. And that’s, in part, because they’re afraid that by participating in the research and sharing their story, it’s going to create additional conflict in the family above and beyond what’s already there as a result of the identity theft.
Adam Levin:
Now I had an aunt who basically, bottom line, she took bankruptcy as opposed to reporting her son when half the family knew that he had stolen her identity and was opening accounts and its tragic when that happens. And it goes both ways. So it’s, it’s important for people to know about this.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Indeed it is.
Travis Taylor:
Have you seen any new trends within identity theft, especially within families, like with how they use technology for instance?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Not really. And I should couch that in that my studies usually have very small sample sizes. So I interview victims and, really what I’ve noticed with the offenders is that it’s old school. They have the social security number, they have the date of birth, they have the mother’s maiden name and that’s all they need to do what they want to do with with the identity.
Travis Taylor:
Right. So it’s still all very analog, I guess?
Beau Friedlander:
Well, I have a question. So is there a profile? It seems to me that there must be some kind of psychological profile of a family member who would steal the identity of another family member. And whether it’s just, you know, like Adam’s friend whose dad said, you know, “What are you going to turn me in?” Which to me seems like something a sociopath would say, So I guess I’m asking, I hate to ask this, but was your mom a sociopath?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
I think potentially she was. Now again, I’m not a licensed clinician.
Beau Friedlander:
Right. But I mean-
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
[inaudible 00:21:19]. I started reading about psychopathy and sociopathy and really anti-social personality disorder, which is what psychopathy and sociology, or sociopathy, are under now in the DSM five. And my mom had a lot of traits consistent with those diagnostic criteria. Something that I’m noticing in my research, and I do study financial abuse in older adults when a family member is the offender, as well as familial identity theft. And what I’m seeing with regard to offenders is that, it’s often reported by their victims or concerned family members, that although, that the offender never felt guilty for anything. Or they were involved in other criminal activities or they were very concerned about their image within the community. So there are some consistent traits there. The lack of guilt is one that’s very consistent with anti-social personality disorder. Now again, my studies have small sample sizes. My personal story would be considered anecdotal. But there does seem to be some commonalities and some patterns emerging with regard to offender behaviors.
Adam Levin:
So have you come to peace with your mom after all this? Or is still, it’s something that kind of knots you up?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
So the researcher/amateur cold case investigator would still like to know where all the money went and what it was spent on. I think there are people out there who know that just haven’t come forward. Or there are people out there that may know things, but they don’t realize they know what they know, kind of thing. Because, to my mom’s high school class, when I went to her 40th class reunion after she passed away, her classmates told me that it was impossible I was her child because she didn’t have any children. So, you know, people may know things and not make the connection because there are people out there that think she didn’t have children and wouldn’t connect the names because she was using her maiden name and I have my dad’s name and my husband’s name hyphenated. So I’d like to know where the money is.
There is a sense of, I don’t know if it’s peace or not, but a sense of accomplishment or triumph in that I wrote the book. So one of the things that I had hoped to accomplish along the way with my career and trying to identify the offender was that I wanted to identify the offender in my case and hold them accountable. And prior to knowing that it was mom and her passing away, I had hoped that that would look something like holding them accountable through the criminal justice system. And, you know, seeing them get the appropriate punishment in court and all those things. That was never going to happen, just the way things played out. So there’s a part of writing the book that, in a way I think, is my way of holding mom accountable for what she did. Her misdeeds didn’t end with her death. And by sharing my story, it helps other victims know that they’re not alone. So it doesn’t necessarily tell them how to recover or how to protect themselves, but it tells them that, hey, someone else went through this too. And I’ve had people reach out to me and say, “Thank you for writing the book. I didn’t realize that there were other people who experienced what I did.”
Beau Friedlander:
So you have your mom’s ashes urn on a shelf in your living space and it sits directly across from the book. So there’s some, maybe, justice in that, that seems to be the sentence.
Travis Taylor:
And you didn’t spread them into a live volcano. So obviously that means that you have come to some peace with this.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Well, when Mom was passing away, one of her last wishes was to be cremated and then come with me to Illinois. And she didn’t want to go with Dad. And we didn’t understand that at the time we wanted to honor that because, you know, you want to honor the last wishes of your loved one. And Dad and I have talked about this. We think she knew what was coming. And my dad’s a farmer. And I think Mom, on some level probably thought, well, if my ashes go with John, they’re going to end up in the manure spreader. And he probably would’ve done that, because he was on the verge of losing the house because of the tax issues and just the other things that were coming at him, rapid fire. And I think she knew that I wouldn’t do that. Now how she knew that, I don’t know, but I still haven’t spread them anywhere. I look at a window and there’s a pond, I could dump them in the pond. I haven’t done it. So somehow she knew that I wouldn’t do that. I don’t know how she knew that.
Adam Levin:
Were you and your mom close when you were growing up?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Oh yeah. We talked every day.
Beau Friedlander:
Wow. I mean, I’m fascinated by this weird dichotomy in your mom, that she was a mom and she loved you and she had a relationship with you that was meaningful and deep. And also was your identity thief.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Yeah. I was gas lit, I think, my entire life.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
So I’m very hypersensitive of that kind of behavior now. I’ll call that out now.
Adam Levin:
As a matter of fact, I do remember one of my favorite quotes when we talked about it for the book, beau and you and I, was when you said, “I ate Thanksgiving dinner for 19 years across the table from my identity thief.” And it’s like, who knew? Who knew? But you were incredibly brave through the entire experience. You’ve accomplished an enormous amount. You’ve actually used this to fuel you and your career. And you know, this is an example of taking a tragedy or a terribly unfortunate circumstance and using it as a catalyst, using it as inspiration. That it’s not only never going to happen to you again, but anything you can do to make sure that it doesn’t happen to other people, you’re going to do. And I just think that’s so commendable and we’re so excited to have had you, or have you, on the show. And we certainly want you to come back.
And again, we always say, this is a no shame zone, but we also hope this is an empowerment zone for people. And you’ve certainly helped us help other people. So thank you so much. If you want to know more about Axton and in particular, what she went through and how she handled it and thoughts about what people can do in order to protect themselves, the book is called The Less People Know About Us.
Beau Friedlander:
And it won a 2020 Edgar award for best fact crime. It’s a really good read.
Adam Levin:
To which we respond, dude. And Axton, this is available on Amazon and normal book sellers online and otherwise that people would go to?
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Yes. So anywhere that you buy books, you can get my book. And it’s available, of course, in hardback, as well as e-book and in audiobook as well.
Beau Friedlander:
Thank you, Axton, so much.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah, thank you.
Axton Betz-Hamilton:
Well, thank you for having me. This was fun.
Beau Friedlander:
Adam.
Adam Levin:
Beau.
Beau Friedlander:
We’ve worked together for 10 years now, right?
Adam Levin:
An eternity.
Beau Friedlander:
Travis, you and I have worked together for an ungodly amount of time. How long? 20?
Adam Levin:
Yeah, I think 24 years,
Beau Friedlander:
24 years. And I’m only 30. So that’s saying something.
Adam Levin:
And Travis was 10 when he started.
Beau Friedlander:
Just saying, I’m in a position to hack and steal your identities like crazy. I could do it right now. You guys are in a position to steal my identity right now. And the one thing that Axton’s story really illustrates for me, more than anything thing else, is the way that, gosh, I mean, it just really cuts to the quick in terms of trust issues. And the fact that she’s bounced back is so resilient is, I think, amazing. I loved her story.
Adam Levin:
No, it’s really an incredible story. In one sense, it’s heartwarming, the way she’s triumphed. But in another way, it’s just a terrible, terrible tragedy.
Beau Friedlander:
I mean, her mom’s ashes are on the bookshelf with the book about the identity theft.
Adam Levin:
I think it’s time to put those ashes in a volcano, perhaps, but that’s just my opinion.
Beau Friedlander:
I think that’s why she got them and not the dad. Anyway.
Travis Taylor:
I think it’s just really inspiring. I think a lot of people who go through that experience could just walk out of it feeling embittered and probably rightly so. But to just do what she’s done with it both in terms of her own personal life, but also her career, I think is just pretty incredible. And as you put it before a just very resilient.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah, no, it’s pretty amazing.
Adam Levin:
It’s about empowerment. I mean this negative situation empowered her to do great things in her life.
Beau Friedlander:
So Adam, let’s just get this out there in a simple, easy to do way. What do you do if you’ve been the victim of identity theft?
Adam Levin:
Well, you need to get a police report. You need to check your credit report to see if there’s anything on there that looks very strange to you. You need to keep logs and files to make sure that when you’re asked, did you do this? You’re able to show that you didn’t do it and where you were and why. And the most important thing is you have to really make yourself harder as a target. You have to take a lot of the cautions that we’ve talked about over the past several weeks.
Travis Taylor:
Yeah. It can be a really overwhelming and stressful experience. I think the statistic I’ve read is that it takes someone, on average, about 40 hours to go through the whole process of filing and doing all the necessary paperwork there.
Beau Friedlander:
Yeah. And it involves information and stuff from your life that is that you don’t really want to share with other people. And stuff you don’t necessarily want to look at. And so it really does add lots of layers of stress in the process, which is why it it’s great if you do have a service through your HR department or your insurance company that can help you get some resolution.
Adam Levin:
But it’s very important to keep in mind that a significant percentage of identity theft is never reported because it occurs within what they call the familial unit. Whether it’s family, friends.
Beau Friedlander:
I know I had a cousin do that to me and it never got reported. I mean, it’s true. A lot of it doesn’t. You just deal with it in the family and it’s done.
Adam Levin:
Thanks everybody for listening this week. And you know, please make my day.
Beau Friedlander:
Adam, don’t beg, go ahead. Beg.
Adam Levin:
Please.
Beau Friedlander:
Oh, he wants you to rate the show on Apple podcasts. And, you know, it does help people find the show. And also Adam, you like reading the reviews, don’t you?
Adam Levin:
I love reviews. I love it, quoting Stanley Tuchi.
Beau Friedlander:
Okay. That’s not Stanley Tuchi though. That’s, what’s that character’s name?
Adam Levin:
Cesar. Caesar … Oh God.
Beau Friedlander:
Rate Adam’s ability to remember characters from the Hunger Games, but just get in there and rate the show. It does help people find it and it helps us get more people involved. We’re always looking for victims. If something’s happened to you and you want to talk to us about it, get in touch with us through, Travis, what is the email?
Travis Taylor:
Stories@Whatthehackpod.com
Adam Levin:
It’s Caesar Flickerman.
Beau Friedlander:
What the Hack with Adam Levin is a production of Loud Tree Media.
Adam Levin:
It’s produced by Andrew Steven, the man with two first names.
Travis Taylor:
You can find us online at loudtreemedia.com and on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Adam K. Levine.
